2011 draft.....

[BENTLEY]

Yeah because Perry Jones isn't questionable.

P. Jones is plenty questionable but Gilchrist and Barnes and Lamb and Rivers are less so. I don't want either of the Jones boys (sorry I included Perry). And that's not to say that neither will be good. They both could be - and Terrence is the more likely of the two.

He also is flawed (I'm not crazy about his ability to drive at the next level--he's sort of awkward and gets sort of caught into awkward shots because he can't pull up and finishes oddly).

I think this might be because he's more of a 4 than a 3 - and at the 4 he doesn't have as much value. And in Utah he won't get much time at the 4 anyway.

But who the hell isn't at #12?

I concede he may be BPA at 12. But I think his ceiling is limited and I'd still gamble on someone else I think. Especially when there are plenty of fallback wings in the 2012 draft.

 

[BENTLEY]

If I'm taking a flyer out on a guy that has some serious question marks but might turn into a good NBA player, then I think I'd rather have Burks than Jones. If Burks can develop his shooting and defense then he'd be awesome.

I'd prefer Burks to Terrence as well.

 

[NUMBERICA]

Let's add some garnish.

Boozer's teammates: Jay Williams, Shane Battier, Mike Dunleavy, Chris Duhon.
Fredette's teammates: Jackson Emery, Noah Hartsock, Charles Abouo, Brandon Davies.

Right. But amount of talent doesn't always equal the best team, nor lack of it equal the worst. KU couldn't get it done last year doing their best Fab 5 impersonation, neither could the Fab 5. Butler found themselves in the national championship game in consecutive years despite having only one, maybe two NBA players. My point is that pointing to Jimmer's greatness when he didn't accomplish it with his team doesn't mean much, especially in college where smart play wins out. And all of those no-names you listed allowed His Greatness to coast worse than just about anyone in college basketball on D.

 

[Gyp Rosetti]

If I'm taking a flyer out on a guy that has some serious question marks but might turn into a good NBA player, then I think I'd rather have Burks than Jones. If Burks can develop his shooting and defense then he'd be awesome.

For me, it's a toss-up. And it appears of the two, that Jones is more likely to be there at 12 then Burks. That's one reason why I mentioned him. The other is because he's a three. I'm not sure I'm sold on Hayward being a very good 3. Maybe I'm wrong. But I see him as a 2 and therefore see our needs being at the 3, 1, 5, 2, 4 in that order. Maybe that's foolish. Maybe Hayward can play the 3 and we can get Burks this year, as well as maybe get lucky next year and get Barnes somehow to round out the wings. But the latter is asking a lot and feeling how I do about Hayward being a 2, I would like Jones at the 3. He might need some coddling though and I'm not sure we have the staff or players to help him there.

 

[Gyp Rosetti]

P. Jones is plenty questionable but Gilchrist and Barnes and Lamb and Rivers are less so. I don't want either of the Jones boys (sorry I included Perry). And that's not to say that neither will be good. They both could be - and Terrence is the more likely of the two.


I think this might be because he's more of a 4 than a 3 - and at the 4 he doesn't have as much value. And in Utah he won't get much time at the 4 anyway.


I concede he may be BPA at 12. But I think his ceiling is limited and I'd still gamble on someone else I think. Especially when there are plenty of fallback wings in the 2012 draft.

Jones is not a 4. He's a 3 in the NBA no question. And I see his ceiling being as high as anyone in this draft. His three biggest flaws are perhaps character (which isn't that bad; he plays with passion), his ability to finish off the dribble (again, he was a frosh; he has the athleticism to do so) and his outside shooting/form which to me is wildly overrated given the fact that he was a freshman and that many a NBA player has been successful with weird form. See Gordon who I think came into this season with a very weird looking shot. That's just my opinion though.

 

[NUMBERICA]

He weighs more than Camby.

Camby doesn't have a good reputation for holding down his matchup either.

 

[NUMBERICA]

Jones is not a 4. He's a 3 in the NBA no question. And I see his ceiling being as high as anyone in this draft. His three biggest flaws are perhaps character (which isn't that bad; he plays with passion), his ability to finish off the dribble (again, he was a frosh; he has the athleticism to do so) and his outside shooting/form which to me is wildly overrated given the fact that he was a freshman and that many a NBA player has been successful with weird form. See Gordon who I think came into this season with a very weird looking shot. That's just my opinion though.

Don't forget that he is a poor defender and poor rebounder even though he's on another planet physically. And he rattles easily. And he takes horrible shots. Playing hard and being smart are as much an inherent trait as athleticism is, and the kid doesn't have those things.

 

[BENTLEY]

Right. But amount of talent doesn't always equal the best team, nor lack of it equal the worst. KU couldn't get it done last year doing their best Fab 5 impersonation, neither could the Fab 5. Butler found themselves in the national championship game in consecutive years despite having only one, maybe two NBA players.

I agree with this. You're saying how far a team gets in the tourney is no indication of an individual player's talent on the team. --Which refutes your original statement that Fredette won't be a good NBA player because BYU only reached the sweet 16.

This debate, like all Jimmer debates, is pointless. His definition at the NBA level is almost impossible to predict. He has a lot of positives to his game and also a lot of negatives. I just think it's wise to not focus too much on a negative that you no longer see the positives (I might be doing this with T. Jones). Every prospect is a gamble but Fredette's offensive talent does well to offset the risk his defense presents.

all of those no-names you listed allowed His Greatness to coast worse than just about anyone in college basketball on D.

I agree. I wasn't trying to pwn you or anything. I hate it when things on here devolve into ttit for tat stuff. Regarding Jimmer there are so many bleary eyed fans that I think they cause a reaction in those that can see more clearly that he's still very flawed. The two groups seem to have polarized each other into either extreme adoration and vehement hate. The truth is somewhere in the middle.

 

[Gyp Rosetti]

Don't forget that he is a poor defender and poor rebounder even though he's on another planet physically. And he rattles easily. And he takes horrible shots. Playing hard and being smart are as much an inherent trait as athleticism is, and the kid doesn't have those things.

Actually he led the SEC in rebounding (as a freshman and he was 49th in the whole country) and by most accounts is a very good defender. And as poor a shot selection and dumb as he supposedly is, he still shot better from downtown than Burks and Leonard (again, as a frosh too) and reeled it in for the tourney where he went 5-9 from downtown. I'd rather have someone who isn't afraid to shoot than someone who overthinks and isn't confident ala Ronnie Brewer. Think about it. The kid went there with Irving knowing they'd be the men after Cousins, Wall, Patterson, Orton and Bledsoe left. He was going to take his shots. It's no surprise. But things mattered most, he focused, gave himself a shorter leash and executed. Oh yeah, he also had 1.9 blocks and 1.1 steals per game.

 

[NUMBERICA]

Actually he led the SEC in rebounding (as a freshman and he was 49th in the whole country) and by most accounts is a very good defender. And as poor a shot selection and dumb as he supposedly is, he still shot better from downtown than Burks and Leonard (again, as a frosh too) and reeled it in for the tourney where he went 5-9 from downtown. I'd rather have someone who isn't afraid to shoot than someone who overthinks and isn't confident ala Ronnie Brewer. Think about it. The kid went there with Irving knowing they'd be the men after Cousins, Wall, Patterson, Orton and Bledsoe left. He was going to take his shots. It's no surprise. But things mattered most, he focused, gave himself a shorter leash and executed. Oh yeah, he also had 1.9 blocks and 1.1 steals per game.

Thought we were talking about Perry Jones. I like Terrence more than Perry for sure.

 

[Gyp Rosetti]

Thought we were talking about Perry Jones. I like Terrence more than Perry for sure.

<shakes head>

 

[Saint Cy of JFC]

Just saw a thing on DX that says Jones is better suited as a face up 4 than a 3 in the NBA.