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2024-2025 Tank Race

HermanG said:
Well then you're not gonna like the fact that our 2026 2RP went there too on that same trade, and could also be top 35.

They used that pick to get Leonard Miller at 33 (also added their own 2028 2RP in that package) so now Spurs own it.
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Yikes.

I remember needing to add some second round picks to that trade, but didn't remember them being our picks and until now didn't picture them being basically late firsts.

We have to hope that Lakers pick is worth it.
 
KqWIN said:
There may have been an offer, I know there was reporting, but that 2 unprotected pick package was probably complete fantasy. And if there was any offer before the season we probably should have taken it because those 50 cents on the dollar trades are hard to find in the first place. I don't doubt that DA's greed has hurt us in one way or another because no matter how difficult it is, you can't take two whole years to do this. I can believe that there was a Bogey->LAL deal and Conley->LAC deal(s) on the table because it made sense+ reporting, but the takeaway from that is that DA should have jumped on those deals and found a way to make it happen even if the compensation wasn't much.

I just wanted to put it out there because what happened to us and what's happening to BKN, POR ect.....that's closer to truth than finding good offer for vets. I think the reality is that teams either have no offers for these guys at all or they have offers for pennies and they simply won't accept those kinds of deals in the real world. We may have been extra slow to get here, but the pivot tank isn't as seamless as it may be in NBA 2K. It was bad news for us back then, but I consider it good news for us now because there are a handful of teams that might want to tank but will find it more difficult to do so/it will take longer to get there than expected. These teams aren't completely stupid, and I don't think we were either two years ago. It just doesn't happen that easy. We'll see some trades, but I think we'll see more sore backs that take weeks to heal.
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I think there was some sort of offer there pre-season. If it was two picks the deal gets done... so yeah that part is fantasy.

With Porty I don't think they have solid leadership and have a coach and GM that are trying to prove their value (to NBA teams as well as their current employer) so I am not sure they thought they were tankers internally.

Brooklyn is very much like us a couple years ago. Caught in the air here with a good young coach and a bunch of vets performing well and no terrible young players to send minutes to. I think they had a better case to think they would suck but I also think they may not have considered exactly how bad the East was. I think all these teams try to thread the needle more than the Process Sixers did though. Maybe in part because of how they got treated but also partly cuz of the "hold out for amazing value for our vets" thinking. I also think part of it is not wanting to be historically bad. "Keep some of this around cuz it won't kill the tank and make us professional" type thinking. Which is fine in the case of the Wiz who have the Michael Jordan or tank commanders to go with a Parisian Pippen who is good but not so good he will lift the floor of that team. So you can keep Deni and Gafford (last year) and Kuz this year. Raps are fine because their guys have gotten hurt but might have issue if they get healthy and have an Eastern heavy schedule.

I worry slightly when Walker comes back that Williams is out of the rotation because of Flip and Flip is too functional and we creep into 6th worst territory. I have gotten a little greedy and would like us bottom 4.
 
SoberasHotRod said:
Yikes.

I remember needing to add some second round picks to that trade, but didn't remember them being our picks and until now didn't picture them being basically late firsts.

We have to hope that Lakers pick is worth it.
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Minny truly capitalized on how effing dumb the Lakers are lol. We would have gladly dealt directly with LA and send them a 2nd or two with NAW and Conley... they loved DLo so much tho. When in doubt blame the Lakers.

All in all I think we end up okay. First minny pick is still Key so that is solid. They likely can't keep all their guys so will lose NAW or someone else. Mike seems to be slowing way down now. We increased our chances at a top 4 pick and ended with a consolation prize but the odds can't be ignored even if they didn't hit imo.
 
Handlogten's Heros said:
I think there was some sort of offer there pre-season. If it was two picks the deal gets done... so yeah that part is fantasy.

With Porty I don't think they have solid leadership and have a coach and GM that are trying to prove their value (to NBA teams as well as their current employer) so I am not sure they thought they were tankers internally.

Brooklyn is very much like us a couple years ago. Caught in the air here with a good young coach and a bunch of vets performing well and no terrible young players to send minutes to. I think they had a better case to think they would suck but I also think they may not have considered exactly how bad the East was. I think all these teams try to thread the needle more than the Process Sixers did though. Maybe in part because of how they got treated but also partly cuz of the "hold out for amazing value for our vets" thinking. I also think part of it is not wanting to be historically bad. "Keep some of this around cuz it won't kill the tank and make us professional" type thinking. Which is fine in the case of the Wiz who have the Michael Jordan or tank commanders to go with a Parisian Pippen who is good but not so good he will lift the floor of that team. So you can keep Deni and Gafford (last year) and Kuz this year. Raps are fine because their guys have gotten hurt but might have issue if they get healthy and have an Eastern heavy schedule.

I worry slightly when Walker comes back that Williams is out of the rotation because of Flip and Flip is too functional and we creep into 6th worst territory. I have gotten a little greedy and would like us bottom 4.
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Part of this decision making is the flattened odds as well. That's kind of the whole idea behind tank + Lauri. However good or bad you thought the Jazz were, it's kind of understood that Laui will cost us some lotto balls but in a lot of cases it's worth it to a better roster with less lotto odds. I think that is a more legit way of thinking than burning lotto balls to ensure the most value in a trade possible (who knows if waiting will actually result in more value).
 
Handlogten's Heros said:
Minny truly capitalized on how effing dumb the Lakers are lol. We would have gladly dealt directly with LA and send them a 2nd or two with NAW and Conley... they loved DLo so much tho. When in doubt blame the Lakers.

All in all I think we end up okay. First minny pick is still Key so that is solid. They likely can't keep all their guys so will lose NAW or someone else. Mike seems to be slowing way down now. We increased our chances at a top 4 pick and ended with a consolation prize but the odds can't be ignored even if they didn't hit imo.
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Here's how I would score it depending on how the Lakers pick ends up:

- If we get pick 5-10, then the trade is still awesome.
-If we get pick 10-15, it's still good.
- 15-20, then it's probably a wash,
-20-30 and we lost the trade.
- 0-4 then the trade was a disaster.
 
KqWIN said:
Part of this decision making is the flattened odds as well. That's kind of the whole idea behind tank + Lauri. However good or bad you thought the Jazz were, it's kind of understood that Laui will cost us some lotto balls but in a lot of cases it's worth it to a better roster with less lotto odds. I think that is a more legit way of thinking than burning lotto balls to ensure the most value in a trade possible (who knows if waiting will actually result in more value).
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Right. Everyone here knows I'm not a front office glazer... but I do agree with the thought process of most of their moves the last 2.5 years. If we had gotten lucky like Atlanta or Houston did in the 2024 draft and landed Castle or in the 2023 draft and landed Wemby, then the front office starts to look a lot smarter. In reality it would just mean they were luckier. If we get the "luck event" we need then we are in an amazing place to capitalize. If we don't then the tanking deniers will look "smart" I guess.

And "luck event" doesn't have to be getting into the top 3 of the draft. It could be drafting the Giannis in the middle of the draft or something like that. We have given ourselves decent-ish odds at landing top 4 and given ourselves extra bites at the apple with additional picks. There is some skill to finding the next Giannis, SGA, Donny, Haliburton etc. but there is also a **** ton of dumb luck.
 
SoberasHotRod said:
Here's how I would score it depending on how the Lakers pick ends up:

- If we get pick 5-10, then the trade is still awesome.
-If we get pick 10-15, it's still good.
- 15-20, then it's probably a wash,
-20-30 and we lost the trade.
- 0-4 then the trade was a disaster.
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I think it depends on who you end up with less than where the pick lands but I understand your thinking here. I'm not as concerned about the seconds we gave up because I think our hands were just tied a bit and we have so many extra picks already. I think its the chances we didn't take to go ahead and get second round picks that kind of bothers me (the THT trade, John Collins trade and maybe the Bogey/KO swap).

Minny made out like bandits in that trade but I am not sure we ended up hurting our 23/25 picks all that much with Conley starting to show his age and now being extended. The big benefit of keeping the pick and having a decent shot (kinda) at Wemby/Miller/Scoot(?) was worth the trade.
 
Handlogten's Heros said:
Right. Everyone here knows I'm not a front office glazer... but I do agree with the thought process of most of their moves the last 2.5 years. If we had gotten lucky like Atlanta or Houston did in the 2024 draft and landed Castle or in the 2023 draft and landed Wemby, then the front office starts to look a lot smarter. In reality it would just mean they were luckier. If we get the "luck event" we need then we are in an amazing place to capitalize. If we don't then the tanking deniers will look "smart" I guess.

And "luck event" doesn't have to be getting into the top 3 of the draft. It could be drafting the Giannis in the middle of the draft or something like that. We have given ourselves decent-ish odds at landing top 4 and given ourselves extra bites at the apple with additional picks. There is some skill to finding the next Giannis, SGA, Donny, Haliburton etc. but there is also a **** ton of dumb luck.
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I still think they’ve been slow. It shouldn’t have taken two whole years to get to where we are. I think that is a result of DA’s greed, but I’m sure his greed also works out for us sometimes. The first year…I guess I’d have to know if trades were available but if they were it was a mistake to not do them in the offseason, but I can acknowledge that it is easier said than done. So many franchises ima similarish spot with similarish results. There’s often a year in between blowing it up and truly tanking, it doesn’t happen immediately. Two was probably slow…but honestly I’m not sure harm has been done. We got the same guy we would have had we tanked harder and I’d rather have 25 and 26 as tanks years thank 24 and 25.
 
KqWIN said:
I still think they’ve been slow. It shouldn’t have taken two whole years to get to where we are. I think that is a result of DA’s greed, but I’m sure his greed also works out for us sometimes. The first year…I guess I’d have to know if trades were available but if they were it was a mistake to not do them in the offseason, but I can acknowledge that it is easier said than done. So many franchises ima similarish spot with similarish results. There’s often a year in between blowing it up and truly tanking, it doesn’t happen immediately. Two was probably slow…but honestly I’m not sure harm has been done. We got the same guy we would have had we tanked harder and I’d rather have 25 and 26 as tanks years thank 24 and 25.
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This is where I've been accused of being a homer on the twitters. Last year I think they looked at the draft and were like "don't care" at least through the summer and thought they could do some Lauri magic on John Collins and set themselves up for a big trade or something to avoid a tank. Like you said the cost was kinda whatevs.

The issue they need to avoid is the narrative here as most of the fanbase is like "we've been tanking for 2 years already... wen rebuild ova?". In reality we have this year started the tank and almost surely going to tank next year. If we land Cooper I can see DA saying "eff it we ball" making a mid tier trade and heading face first into the play-in morass. I think its unlikely but maybe like a 5% chance. I think the troops could get restless and cause Ryan to get DA to hit the gas even without landing Cooper... and that would be kinda the "mid-est" timeline.

I think if we do the right thing for two years we should be good... even if it costs us Lauri at some point.
 
I don't think we can out tank Washington. They are off to this record with Poole having a career best year.
 
John Collins would help the Bulls so much. Jalen Smith hasn’t been as good as last year, and Collins can play with both Vuc and Smith. They have no pressure or athleticism at the rim. The long awaited Lonzo-Collins trade could happen.
 
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