9/11/2010 Burn a Koran Day

[Gyp Rosetti]

This pastor changed his mind fwiw.

 

[moevillini]

or did he?

seems I keep hearing conflicting stories

 

[YB85]

I see that Duck posted this already about these attention whores, but here's the lazy *** version:

https://www.ocala.com/article/20100909/ARTICLES/100909743/1412?Title=Westboro-Baptish-Church-to-burn-Qurans-if-Dove-doesn-t

Westboro Baptist Church, the small Topeka, Kan., church that pickets funerals of American soldiers to spread its message that God is punishing the country for being tolerant of homosexuals, has vowed to hold a Quran burning if Gainesville's Dove World Outreach Center calls its off.

"WBC burned the Koran once – and if you sissy brats of Doomed america bully Terry Jones and the Dove World Outreach Center until they change their plans to burn that blasphemous tripe called the Koran, then WBC will burn it (again), to clearly show you some things," the church announced in a news release this week.

And Jones in the last day has indicated some reluctance to burn the Muslim holy book.

The Canadian Press reported Thursday that in an interview with a Canadian radio station, Jones said the church was considering calling it off.

"We are very much in prayer about it. There is the possibility, of course, that we will not do it," Jones was quoted as saying.

He told a group of reporters Wednesday that he planned to burn at least one copy of the Quran.

Dove World is one of the few groups to join forces with Westboro members, who have protested at funerals across the country.

In April, a handful of Westboro members picketed outside of the University of Florida Hillel, the Jewish student center, and Trinity United Methodist Church, and Jones and about 30 members of his congregation joined the WBC members outside of Trinity United.

While officials from President Barack Obama to Secretary of State Hillary Rodham Clinton have condemned Jones' plan, Fox News reported Thursday that a White House spokesman said the administration is considering contacting Jones to urge him to call it off.

I hope their whole congregation gathers for this and a suicide bomber joins them.

 

[Archie Moses]

Oh look, what a surprise.

https://www.ocala.com/article/20100909/ARTICLES/100909743/1412?Title=Westboro-Baptish-Church-to-burn-Qurans-if-Dove-doesn-t



I hope their whole congregation gathers for this and a suicide bomber joins them.

They're seriously crazy. If what they did wasn't so serious, it would be comical. Have you heard their songs?


I said it once and I'll say it again.

Some people are alive because it is illegal to kill them.

 

[Scat]

I would think you were marginally less crazy if there were some actual source behind the belief. For example, I don't believe in the Pope per se but if you did and you showed me where the Pope said the U.S. is divinely inspired I wouldn't think you were crazy; I'd just think you were wrong.

So which is it: crazy (i.e. no real basis at all) or wrong (i.e. no basis that you and I can personally agree upon)?

How about quotes from people that were present during the creation of the U.S. and the writing of the Constitution? Does anything that people such as George Washington, Ben Franklin, James Madison, Alexander Hamilton, etc. have to say on the matter carry any weight with you?

No People can be bound to acknowledge and adore the invisible hand, which conducts the Affairs of men more than the People of the United States. Every step, by which they have advanced to the character of an independent nation, seems to have been distinguished by some token of providential agency.

GEORGE WASHINGTON, first inaugural address, Apr. 30, 1789

By the all-powerful dispensations of Providence, I have been protected beyond all human probability and expectation; for I had four bullets through my coat, and two horses shot under me, yet escaped unhurt, altho' death was levelling my companions on every side.

GEORGE WASHINGTON, letter to John A. Washington, Jul. 18, 1755

I can provide you with dozens of quotes from Washington referring to God, Providence and divine intervention.

"Before God, I believe the hour has come. My judgement approves this measure, and my whole heart is in it. All that I have, and all that I am, and all that I hope in this life, I am now ready here to stake upon it. And I leave off as I began, that live or die, survive or perish, I am for the Declaration. It is my living sentiment, and by the blessing of God it shall be my dying sentiment. Independence now, and Independence for ever!"

John Adams, July 1, 1776

"The second day of July, 1776, will be the most memorable epoch in the history of America. I am apt to believe that it will be celebrated by succeeding generations as the great anniversary Festival. It ought to be commemorated, as the Day of Deliverance, by solemn acts of devotion to God Almighty. It ought to be solemnized with pomp and parade, with shows, games, sports, guns, bells, bonfires and illuminations, from one end ofthis continent to the other, from this time forward forever."

"You will think me transported with enthusiasm, but I am not. I am well aware of the toil and blood and treasure that it will cost to maintain this Declaration, and support and defend these States. Yet through all the gloom I can see the rays of ravishing light and glory I can see that the end is worth more than all the means; that posterity will triumph in that day's transaction, even though we [may regret] it, which I trust in God we shall not."

John Adams, July 3rd, 1776

Do you want more from Adams?

It is the duty of mankind on all suitable occasions to acknowledge their dependence on the Divine Being... [that] Almighty God would mercifully interpose and still the rage of war among the nations...[and that] He would take this province under his protection, confound the designs and defeat the attempts of its enemies, and unite our hearts and strengthen our hands in every undertaking that may be for the public good, and for our defense and security in this time of danger.

I never doubted, for instance, the existence of the Deity; that he made the world, and governed it by his Providence; that the most acceptable service of God was the doing good to man; that our souls are immortal; and that all crime will be punished, and virtue rewarded either here or hereafter.

Freedom is not a gift bestowed upon us by other men, but a right that belongs to us by the laws of God and nature.

The pleasures of this world are rather from God's goodness than our own merit.

Benjamin Franklin, July 1776 on declaring independence from England

I have lived, Sir, a long time, and the longer I live, the more convincing proofs I see of this truth--that God Governs the affairs of men. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without His notice, is it probable that an empire can rise without His aid?

We have been assured, Sir, in the Sacred Writings, that "except the Lord build the House, they labor in vain that build it." I firmly believe this; and I also believe that without his concurring aid we shall succeed in this political building no better than the Builders of Babel: We shall be divided by our partial local interests; our projects will be confounded, and we ourselves shall become a reproach and bye word down to future ages. And what is worse, mankind may hereafter from this unfortunate instance, despair of establishing Governments by Human wisdom and leave it to chance, war and conquest.

I therefore beg leave to move--that henceforth prayers imploring the assistance of Heaven, and its blessing on our deliberations, be held in this Assembly every morning before we proceed to business, and that one or more of the clergy of this city be requested to officiate in that service.

Benjamin Franklin, Congressional Congress 1787

For my part, I sincerely esteem it a system which, without the finger of God, never could have been suggested and agreed upon by such a diversity of interests.

Alexander Hamilton on the Constitution

"It cannot be emphasized too strongly or too often that this great nation was founded, not by religionists, but by Christians; not on religions, but on the Gospel of Jesus Christ. For this very reason peoples of other faiths have been afforded asylum, prosperity, and freedom of worship here."

Patrick Henry March 23rd, 1775

"When the great work was done and published, I was ... struck with amazement. Nothing less than that superintending hand of Providence, that so miraculously carried us through the war, ... could have brought it about so complete, upon the whole ."

Charles Pinckney on the Constitution

"Yet that we may not appear to be defective even in earthly honors, let a day be solemnly set apart for proclaiming the charter; let it be placed on the divine law, the Word of God; let a crown be placed thereon.

Thomas Paine on the Constitution

"Hold on, my friends, to the Constitution and to the Republic for which it stands. Miracles do not cluster, and what has happened once in 6000 years, may not happen again. Hold on to the Constitution, for if the American Constitution should fail, there will be anarchy throughout the world."

Daniel Webster

Just the good ones, duh.

Not necessarily. The founding of anything by divine inspiration can be screwed up by future generations or the machinations of man. Just because it is currently evil does not mean that the original intent or creation was not divinely inspired.

 

[Archie Moses]

Marcus, you do realize you're arguing with Kicky right? The same guy that said that Mormons asking for their temple ceremonies not to be shown/discussed outside of the temple because it's considered sacred and respectful is not a valid reason, right?

 

[NAOS]

How about quotes from people that were present during the creation of the U.S. and the writing of the Constitution? Does anything that people such as George Washington, Ben Franklin, James Madison, Alexander Hamilton, etc. have to say on the matter carry any weight with you?


I can provide you with dozens of quotes from Washington referring to God, Providence and divine intervention.


Do you want more from Adams?


Not necessarily. The founding of anything by divine inspiration can be screwed up by future generations or the machinations of man. Just because it is currently evil does not mean that the original intent or creation was not divinely inspired.

The gosh darn handy thing 'bout the word "God" is dat you can jus' assume it means the same ting for evrybody, for all damn time!!! Hell, Washington muss have meant the same ting as lil' ol me, Marcus Asscooker! Shiiiii...

Maybe you should look up the word Deism, which is essentially a way of acknowledging God as a clockmaker who created and wound-up the universe, then doesn't lay a hand on it.... even for the creation of such a glorious nation like the USA. And then perhaps you should realize that you don't know dick about American history. clearly.

 

[Scat]

The gosh darn handy thing 'bout the word "God" is dat you can jus' assume it means the same ting for evrybody, for all damn time!!! Hell, Washington muss have meant the same ting as lil' ol me, Marcus Asscooker! Shiiiii...

Maybe you should look up the word Deism, which is essentially a way of acknowledging God as a clockmaker who created and wound-up the universe, then doesn't lay a hand on it.... even for the creation of such a glorious nation like the USA. And then perhaps you should realize that you don't know dick about American history. clearly.

Nice retort except that I simply said the US was divinely inspired. That's a pretty broad statement. That said, many of the founding fathers do reference God and Christ specifically.

Seems to me that you are trying rewrite American history to fit your own belief system. I'm not the one that is referencing God, Providence and Christ. It is the men that declared independence, fought the Revolution and wrote the Constitution. How you seem to think you know more than the men that were actually there is beyond belief.

 

[One Brow]

How about quotes from people that were present during the creation of the U.S. and the writing of the Constitution? Does anything that people such as George Washington, Ben Franklin, James Madison, Alexander Hamilton, etc. have to say on the matter carry any weight with you?

If they said what you are trying to defend, that would put you on the wrong side of Sirkickyass's dichotomy.

Washington#1 was a metaphor.
Washington#2 said nothing about the USA.
Adams#1 invokes God for his personal circumstances, nor for the USA.
Adams#2 makes no claim God is blessing the USA.
Franklin#1 seems to come from a speech in 1747: https://books.google.com/books?id=vdQLAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA169#v=onepage&q&f=false
Franklin#2 is requesting a blessing, every day, not stating that one was provided
Hamilton is an unsourced quote, and considering the quality of the quotes so far presented, probably a fabrication.
Henry's quote dates before the Declaration of Independence.
Adding more context to Pinckney's quote shows it's not a suggestion of divine endorsement.

When the great work was done and published, I was not only most agreeably disappointed, but struck with amazement. Nothing less than that superintending hand of Providence, that so miraculously carried us through the war (in my humble opinion), could have brought it about so complete, upon the whole .

The constitution recommended, in all respects, takes its raise where it ought, from the people; ...

The quote from Paine was first published in January 1776 in common Sense, again before the Declaration of Independence.
Webster's quote does not even mention God.

Did you just cut-and-paste this list? It's embarrassinly obvious you did not research it, and probably uou didn't even correctly read it.

Marcus, you do realize you're arguing with Kicky right? The same guy that said that Mormons asking for their temple ceremonies not to be shown/discussed outside of the temple because it's considered sacred and respectful is not a valid reason, right?

I believe "valid reason" was not one of the choices ofered in the dichotomy.

 

[Gameface]

Nice retort except that I simply said the US was divinely inspired. That's a pretty broad statement. That said, many of the founding fathers do reference God and Christ specifically.

Seems to me that you are trying rewrite American history to fit your own belief system. I'm not the one that is referencing God, Providence and Christ. It is the men that declared independence, fought the Revolution and wrote the Constitution. How you seem to think you know more than the men that were actually there is beyond belief.

I think it says quite a lot that although many of the founding fathers were indeed Christians or otherwise religious in some way, and expressed as much in their personal writing and in speaking, yet they seemed unanimous in the fact that none of our founding documents would derive their authority from God, but instead on the consent of men with one another. Culturally this is a Christian nation, legally and officially our government is secular. Culture is not legally protected. So if something threatens the current culture there isn't anything you can do by law to stop your version of our culture from being destroyed. Cultural habits change. Cultures evolve and certain aspects of a given culture go away. If "the men that were actually there" wanted to ensure our nation had a Christian foundation then I'm sure they would have put it in writing in our founding documents. Instead they talked a lot about how government and religion needed to be separate for the mutual benefit of religion and government.

 

[sirkickyass]

Marcus - I think at best you've provided a number of quotes designed to show either that individual Founding Fathers were religious or, interpreted charitably, that some founding fathers believed that they were divinely inspired.

No one seriously disputes that some founding fathers were religious. Similarly, no one can seriously dispute that some founding fathers were certainly not religious. As a result, arguing that the creation of the United States was divinely inspired by examining the religious views of some founding fathers will always be an exercise in cherry picking.

As for the latter point, people believe they are doing things that are inspired by God all the time. That subjective belief is not exactly persuasive on the issue of whether or not their actions are objectively divinely inspired. None of these guys, as far as I'm aware, were exactly religious leaders or claimed to have a direct connection to God that you would recognize as valid (i.e. I don't think any of these guys were a prophet).

Put another way, the structure of your argument seems to imply that if someone expresses a belief in God, or frames their actions as being driven by a belief in God, then their actions must be divinely inspired. This has implications I'm sure you wouldn't defend. For example, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_Inquisition

Marcus, you do realize you're arguing with Kicky right? The same guy that said that Mormons asking for their temple ceremonies not to be shown/discussed outside of the temple because it's considered sacred and respectful is not a valid reason, right?

A) You have no idea how amused I am that you think you can condescend to me.

B) Your answer was the equivalent of "because I said so." I asked you detailed follow-up questions, some of which were based in distinctions laid out by Mormon leaders, which you declined to answer.

https://jazzfanz.com/showthread.php/1966-9-11-2010-Burn-a-Koran-Day?p=47642&viewfull=1#post47642

The only person who attempted to give a response was Bronco, and his answer effectively conceded that a lot of it had to do with the fragility of the Mormon psyche. Answer my post and then maybe we can engage in the fantasy that you're in a position to behave as if you're above me. As is, it simply appears that you're not prepared to seriously discuss what constitutes offensive behavior and why.

 

[NAOS]

Nice retort except that I simply said the US was divinely inspired. That's a pretty broad statement. That said, many of the founding fathers do reference God and Christ specifically.

Seems to me that you are trying rewrite American history to fit your own belief system. I'm not the one that is referencing God, Providence and Christ. It is the men that declared independence, fought the Revolution and wrote the Constitution. How you seem to think you know more than the men that were actually there is beyond belief.

You still don't address the idea that you are using/thinking of the terms "God", "providence", and "christ" in a universal/static manner. If YOU do that, then, without your even being aware of it, YOU are re-writing American history: it all bends to perverted notion that these ideas don't change.

I promise that I'll try to engage with you the second you show a single concern for the substance of posts. Right now, you are just painting the world one color.