A Modern Defensive Scheme

[BabyPeterzz]

The NBA has changed, and it's time the Jazz catch up.

The Jazz need to hire an assistant coach that brings a modern defensive scheme ala Rivers, Thibodeau, etc.

Everyone knows this team can't defend the 3 and tonight is the last straw. 18-28 from 3? Are you ****ing kidding me? The Jazz have hung onto the idea that giving up the 3 is less important than layups. Well guess the **** what? They're both deadly in today's NBA.

Get a damn coach in here that can teach an up-to-date defensive scheme or we're screwed.

 

[LogGrad98]

Does it take a freaking defensive scheme to get a player to stay in front of his man? Does it take one to get a player to get a hand in the shooters face? Does it really take a defensive scheme to get a player to hustle back on defense? Do you need a defensive scheme to get a player to actually close out on shooters and challenge shots?

We don't need a new defensive scheme, we need players that PLAY DEFENSE!! Until we see them putting forth some actual effort they are purely and singly at fault for our defensive woes.

 

[BENTLEY]

You gotta put it on the coaches. Even if you wanna blame it on effort I still blame the coaches. Whadaya wanna do, get rid of the players and grab some d-leaguers? Sheesh, it's not like it's just one or two players and it's not like it's just one or two games (or years) - the Jazz always give up the 3 and often get killed by it. Draft talent and then get the most out of it. YOu can only bitch at the players for so long before you really gotta entertain the idea that maybe it's not the players' fault.

 

[Mr. McGibblets]

The Jazz do two major things on D that bug me too: 1) They force the guy middle instead of baseline which enables the guy with the ball to have the entire court open to him for a kick out; 2) The Jazz are taught to leave the guy posting up for three and go help on a pick 'n roll guy who is going towards the paint.

These two things seem to make the Jazz especially vulnerable to the three.

I posted this in the game thread, but I'll repost it here about pushing guys baseline instead of towards the middle (which the Jazz still do and are apparently one of the few teams that do so):

Locke just wrote this:

Forcing the ball middle or forcing the ball baseline
March 11th, 2011


When an NBA player gets the ball on the wing a defensive team has two choices, force baseline or force middle. The Utah Jazz forces the ball to the middle in contrast to most of the teams in the NBA who force baseline.

The Jazz force to the middle because the help defense is closer to the ball. The advantage to forcing middle brings the help defense off the outside shooter and into the paint. The defender should be able to help out and return to his player without causing massive rotation. If your team is clogging the paint then the defender is able to get their quickly. The risk is this method is the ball handler can see the entire floor when he drives to the middle of the floor. He can distribute the ball to the top or the cross court corner or wing.

Teams that force baseline usually bring a big to the ball as the help defender. They also will use the baseline to act as another defender. The advantage to doing this is ball handler has a hard time seeing the entire floor from the baseline drive. The down side is the cross side corner three is open in this system and the defense is forced to have mobile bigs who can slide over and help.

This is very rudimentary. If you want more details on things of this nature be sure to check out nbaplaybook.com

https://www.nba.com/jazz/features/locked_on_jazz.html

2) As for defending the three, I posted about it in the thread about Afflalo being wide open for the game clincher a couple weeks ago: The Jazz still teach the man guarding the weak side guy posting up for three to leave his man (the guy posting up for 3) and to go help cut off the guy coming off a pick and roll up top. The Jazz want the defender off the ball to cut off the lane. This again, is one of the things the Jazz do that other teams don't. Thus, leaving guys like Afflalo wide open for the three.

 

[BabyPeterzz]

Does it take a freaking defensive scheme to get a player to stay in front of his man? Does it take one to get a player to get a hand in the shooters face? Does it really take a defensive scheme to get a player to hustle back on defense? Do you need a defensive scheme to get a player to actually close out on shooters and challenge shots?

We don't need a new defensive scheme, we need players that PLAY DEFENSE!! Until we see them putting forth some actual effort they are purely and singly at fault for our defensive woes.

You're right, the effort needs to be there. But you can't deny that the Jazz defensive mantra is outdated.

Hell, even Boozer mentioned how Thib's defense is more complex than the Jazz defense. We've fallen behind.

 

[LogGrad98]

You're right, the effort needs to be there. But you can't deny that the Jazz defensive mantra is outdated.

Hell, even Boozer mentioned how Thib's defense is more complex than the Jazz defense. We've fallen behind.

Really this largely comes back to the players too. Sloan's philosophy was that players playing hard and putting forth the effort on defense don't need complicated systems to defend. To him basic fundamentals of defense, when actively and consistently applied, were all you needed. And it proved accurate when he had players that did go at it hard. Right now we don't. So maybe we just coddle the players. But then this sends a different message: "that's ok that you stood there with your guy shooting a 3 and didn't even put your hand up. It's ok that you just watched that guy run in for a layup instead of chasing him down. It is the system that failed you."

I do agree that many of Sloan's techniques were outdated, his defensive system as well as on offense. What is not outdated, but is becoming so due to lazy players, is expecting the players to work at defense, to help each other, to do the little things. I guess in the whiny-baby-bitchy NBA of today we have to build a system to force players to do what they should do on defense instead of just expecting it of them.

I am talking about stuff we teach kids in Jr. Jazz. Our team is not even close to covering the fundamentals. There are Jr. High teams with players that understand and work the fundamentals of defense better than our team does right now. Ironically it is the rookies that are both putting forth the most effort and trying the hardest to stick to the fundamentals. If I have to watch Bell stand 4 feet from his guy while his guy shoots the 3 and he just looks at him, hands at his side, one more time I think I will have an aneurysm.

Of course we can't just go get new players. What we need is a coach that expects and accepts nothing less that full effort on both end of the court. When we get that kind of leadership then the defensive schemes will make a difference. Until we get a coach that will push his players like that, the best defensive guy in the world won't change things much.


I am really not arguing your point. You are right, we have been left behind. Sloan did hold this team in the dark ages so to speak and he was consistently outcoached more and more as his career wound down. Both offensively and defensively. I think it would help Ty tremendously to bring in a defensive specialist with some experience as primary backup coach. Maybe a guy like that will command the respect to also get the players engaged.

But I have a hard time discussing the system when I watch a "professional" ball player stand there watching people shoot over him without even twitching a finger, again and again. That guy needs his *** kicked, and kicked hard.

 

[The Thriller]

Does it take a freaking defensive scheme to get a player to stay in front of his man? Does it take one to get a player to get a hand in the shooters face? Does it really take a defensive scheme to get a player to hustle back on defense? Do you need a defensive scheme to get a player to actually close out on shooters and challenge shots?

We don't need a new defensive scheme, we need players that PLAY DEFENSE!! Until we see them putting forth some actual effort they are purely and singly at fault for our defensive woes.

This is the equivilent to saying in Football...

"Does it take a defensive scheme for DBs and linebackers to cover the receivers?"

The obvious answer, YES!

In basketball, VERY FEW players can actually stay in front of other players. One on one, no one in the NBA can cover the opposing player. Not legally anyway.

The cure is deception and scheming to funnel players into places they don't want to go.

Deception... Act as if you're going to press and bail.
Act like you're in a zone when you're not.
Act like you're in man when you're not.
Act like you're going to double team then bail.
Quickly bring a trap.

Keep opposing offenses guessing when you're going to "blitz" and who's coming is critical for football. Why not in Basketball?

As far as funneling, the Jazz don't do any of this. We let the offense dictate to us where we, the defense, go.

Seriously, why don't the Jazz force someone else to bring the ball up the court? Keep the ball away from Rose. Press, trap, deny him the ball.

Force a guy baseline and trap him. Force guys like rose to their weak hand. Front big men in the post. Switch matchups. Switch on screens sometimes.

The Jazz don't do any of that.

Seriously, the effort is lacking at times. But the defensive scheme is completely non-existent. What are the Jazz trying to accomplish? There needs to be specific goals, since every defense in the world is geared to "stopping" the other team from scoring. But specifics are greatly needed for a top defense. The jazz don't have any goals or specific plans. As a result, they look like one disjointed group of defenders watching opposing players score on them at will.

 

[gregbroncs]

Does it take a freaking defensive scheme to get a player to stay in front of his man? Does it take one to get a player to get a hand in the shooters face? Does it really take a defensive scheme to get a player to hustle back on defense? Do you need a defensive scheme to get a player to actually close out on shooters and challenge shots?

We don't need a new defensive scheme, we need players that PLAY DEFENSE!! Until we see them putting forth some actual effort they are purely and singly at fault for our defensive woes.

Yes. In the NBA you can not stay in front of your man without help.
Yes. If your not close to your man due to screens or other factors (helping teammates) you can not get a hand in their face.
No. Player's have to hustle back on their own.
Not necessarily. However having a defensive scheme that does not leave shooters wide open makes it easier to close out on them.

We do need a new defensive scheme. The Jazz's current defensive scheme has been outdated and exploited by good teams for 5 years or so. The Jazz force players to the middle of the floor. With the current crop of PG's in the NBA all this does is give them 4 other players to find and pass to.

They do however need players to hustle on defense. Which they are not doing right now. This team is broken. It's just the way it is. However the defensive woes on this team are not all on the player's. It's a combination of player's not knowing the defensive schemes they are trying to run and the coaches using an outdated scheme that leaves shooter's wide open on the perimeter.

I'm not exactly defending the player's here as they are definitely playing lazy defense. I just don't think the whole of our problems are the fault of the player's.

 

[LogGrad98]

You guys miss the point. The issue I have is not if they are out of position to make the defensive play, or if they have a coherent plan to contain the opposing teams best player or if they have plans that make them a precision team. Yes they need better systems for sure. That is not the biggest concern imo.

It is when you are right in front of your guy, he get the ball, stands there, then rises to shoot the 3. No screens, no nothing, just starts to shoot right in front of him, and our guy makes NO MOVE WHATSOEVER to challenge the shot. It is when someone has a minor breakaway and one of our players is even with them when they head toward their basket and our guy GIVES UP ON THE PLAY, just stops and watches the guy lay it up. It is when someone makes a move to the basket and our guy just steps aside, matador defense. Really the lack of personal effort is pathetic right now.

The best system in the world will not get a player to choose to raise his hands above waist height. The player has to choose to move his own arms. Right now for our team their arms are hanging limp and impotent at their sides.

 

[Zerol]

I really think the Jazz should play zone D exclusively from now on. We don't have no good individual defenders, and we can't stay in front of the opponents. Playing zone at least eliminates (somewhat) the pick and roll and curling around the baseline. Nothing works now, so why not try it?

 

[gregbroncs]

You guys miss the point. The issue I have is not if they are out of position to make the defensive play, or if they have a coherent plan to contain the opposing teams best player or if they have plans that make them a precision team. Yes they need better systems for sure. That is not the biggest concern imo.

It is when you are right in front of your guy, he get the ball, stands there, then rises to shoot the 3. No screens, no nothing, just starts to shoot right in front of him, and our guy makes NO MOVE WHATSOEVER to challenge the shot. It is when someone has a minor breakaway and one of our players is even with them when they head toward their basket and our guy GIVES UP ON THE PLAY, just stops and watches the guy lay it up. It is when someone makes a move to the basket and our guy just steps aside, matador defense. Really the lack of personal effort is pathetic right now.

The best system in the world will not get a player to choose to raise his hands above waist height. The player has to choose to move his own arms. Right now for our team their arms are hanging limp and impotent at their sides.

I did concede that this team is broken and that the player's are not putting in the effort that they should. It does not change that we still need a better defensive system.

 

[LogGrad98]

I did concede that this team is broken and that the player's are not putting in the effort that they should. It does not change that we still need a better defensive system.

Yeah it kind of is a chicken and egg kind of thing.

 

[LjJazzman]

Lets just go pick up that defensive genius coach who is out of work just sitting around doing nothing and convince him to be a assistant for us. That should be easy.

 

[BENTLEY]

In basketball, VERY FEW players can actually stay in front of other players. One on one, no one in the NBA can cover the opposing player. Not legally anyway.

Good point. Jerry's system worked better before Stern changed the rules to favor more offense.

The cure is deception and scheming to funnel players into places they don't want to go.

Deception... Act as if you're going to press and bail.
Act like you're in a zone when you're not.
Act like you're in man when you're not.
Act like you're going to double team then bail.
Quickly bring a trap.

Keep opposing offenses guessing when you're going to "blitz" and who's coming is critical for football. Why not in Basketball?

I like it. Innovative. You be the new defensive coach.

 

[Darkwing Duck]

Traps don't work well in the NBA because all players on a team are generally competent with the ball.

Seriously, trapping Rose and having Deng go 4 on 3 is somehow a good thing?

 

[GoJazz]

Both are at fault. The players aren't buying the sceme (wrong or right) and since they don't buy the sceme they aren't playing hard. I think defense is more about effort then sceme. If guys are rotating, switching, fighting through screens, contesting shots, and playing hard good things seem to happen. Currently the players aren't doing these things and the coachs aren't pushing them openly about it... (look at our first quarter points allowed)

 

[Gyp Rosetti]

It comes from the top down. A great coach wouldn't allow the players to play half-hearted defense regularly. Period.

 

[zman1527]

Both are at fault. The players aren't buying the sceme (wrong or right) and since they don't buy the sceme they aren't playing hard. I think defense is more about effort then sceme. If guys are rotating, switching, fighting through screens, contesting shots, and playing hard good things seem to happen. Currently the players aren't doing these things and the coachs aren't pushing them openly about it... (look at our first quarter points allowed)

If you believe as a player that your scheme is bad, your motivation is going to be lacking. Do you really think the players are surprised to see other teams rain down 3s on them? Its been going on for years and it is the scheme, not the players. It gets very disheartening, de-motivating to play with a defense that you know is no good. Its the coaching. And it sure is good to know that Ty learned all he knows from Jerry so we have "continuity" or something.

 

[sojodave]

I know that Sloan left with 3/4 into the season, but I am alarmed that Ty hasn't changed things up more. Against Minnesota, they started 10 for 10, I think any coach would know it's time to give them a different look. I think we need to use the zone a lot more when we clearly have no one that can stop their man. I think we should front the post 3/4. It is obvious that forcing your man to the middle hasn't worked since the Jazz lost to Houston in 95. Guys love to force it to the middle, the Jazz collapse, opponents dish out to a wide open three pointer...we know the rest.

 

[The Thriller]

You guys miss the point. The issue I have is not if they are out of position to make the defensive play, or if they have a coherent plan to contain the opposing teams best player or if they have plans that make them a precision team. Yes they need better systems for sure. That is not the biggest concern imo.

It is when you are right in front of your guy, he get the ball, stands there, then rises to shoot the 3. No screens, no nothing, just starts to shoot right in front of him, and our guy makes NO MOVE WHATSOEVER to challenge the shot. It is when someone has a minor breakaway and one of our players is even with them when they head toward their basket and our guy GIVES UP ON THE PLAY, just stops and watches the guy lay it up. It is when someone makes a move to the basket and our guy just steps aside, matador defense. Really the lack of personal effort is pathetic right now.

The best system in the world will not get a player to choose to raise his hands above waist height. The player has to choose to move his own arms. Right now for our team their arms are hanging limp and impotent at their sides.

I think that many, myself included, probably have overlooked the amount of effort (or lack thereof) the Jazz have put forth in the last 2 weeks.

I don't think even Cleveland would fall behind by 30 to Chicago.

I don't think many college teams could be blown out by the Twolves.

Yet, we've managed to do that.

Yes, the defensive scheme does need a lot of work.

But the effort that our team is putting forth... Such as the first half against Chicago... Might quite honestly be the worst effort by a Jazz team ever.