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By "conversions", that is what I was referring to, in essence. I don't know if I could make the same claim for pagans that lived together with Muslims in the first millennium. It is something that I will need to research in depth before I could argue with you about it, and be able to offer good, educated insight.

Long story short though, I think we can both agree that Millsapa is completely incorrect with the notion that Muslim doctrine insists that we should forcibly convert christians, eh Siromar? Give credit where credit is due :)

More than agree. Back in the day, the whole world was religious, so it was a matter of picking your poison. The Islamic world was leagues ahead of Christian Europe in every conceivable way (scientifically, socially, philosophically, etc). They were tolerant and progressive. In fact, if it wasn't for a chain of unfortunate events (the fragmentation of society along sectarian lines, conflict over rule, rise in fundamentalism, and the Mongol wars), humanity would have reached the age of Enlightenment a couple of hundred years earlier. The European Renaissance was the direct product of Muslim philosophy, and its influence on the great European religious thinkers, like Thomas Aquinas.

The world owe Muslims a lot. I have no gripe with that. But that was then, and this is now. And now, superior paradigms exist.
 
More than agree. Back in the day, the whole world was religious, so it was a matter of picking your poison. The Islamic world was leagues ahead of Christian Europe in every conceivable way (scientifically, socially, philosophically, etc). They were tolerant and progressive. In fact, if it wasn't for a chain of unfortunate events (the fragmentation of society along sectarian lines, conflict over rule, rise in fundamentalism, and the Mongol wars), humanity would have reached the age of Enlightenment a couple of hundred years earlier. The European Renaissance was the direct product of Muslim philosophy, and its influence on the great European religious thinkers, like Thomas Aquinas.

The world owe Muslims a lot. I have no gripe with that. But that was then, and this is now. And now, superior paradigms exist.

Your intellectual honesty is heartwarming. Although I might disagree with you in terms of what these "superior paradigms" are, I could potentially see where you'd be coming from with them. And hey, whatever makes you happy, a good human, a compassionate citizen in this world, I have no beef with. After all, thats essentially what every faith boils down to :)
 
That is simply not true. But I won't engage in that debate because I don't want to be lumped with Millsapa. Sooo, I'll broach it some other time. :p

Edit: It is true in the case of Christians and Jews. But not others. Not by a long shot.

I know for sure that Forced Conversion is not allowed by Islam. (not saying muslims had never did that, and I honestly don't know about the relation between Islam and the religions other than Christianity and Judaism, it would be another topic and I'd like to study as well on it, like dalamon)
 
I know for sure that Forced Conversion is not allowed by Islam. (not saying muslims had never did that, and I honestly don't know about the relation between Islam and the religions other than Christianity and Judaism, it would be another topic and I'd like to study as well on it, like dalamon)

/thread
 
More than agree. Back in the day, the whole world was religious, so it was a matter of picking your poison. The Islamic world was leagues ahead of Christian Europe in every conceivable way (scientifically, socially, philosophically, etc). They were tolerant and progressive. In fact, if it wasn't for a chain of unfortunate events (the fragmentation of society along sectarian lines, conflict over rule, rise in fundamentalism, and the Mongol wars), humanity would have reached the age of Enlightenment a couple of hundred years earlier. The European Renaissance was the direct product of Muslim philosophy, and its influence on the great European religious thinkers, like Thomas Aquinas.

The world owe Muslims a lot. I have no gripe with that. But that was then, and this is now. And now, superior paradigms exist.


Now repeat after me sir siromar,

"Esh-heh-du-an-laa-elaa-heh-ill-la-Allah-va..."
 
I know for sure that Forced Conversion is not allowed by Islam. (not saying muslims had never did that, and I honestly don't know about the relation between Islam and the religions other than Christianity and Judaism, it would be another topic and I'd like to study as well on it, like dalamon)

It certainly IS allowed, by sharia, in some instances. For an example, if a Muslim were to convert to another religion, then they are to be killed unless they repent and rejoin Islam. In some other instances, the Quran is not clear on the subject. Verses like "no compulsion in religion" that Mohammad came up with before al-hijra are very different from ones he wrote after he became powerful. It is really how you look at it. Most scholars would agree that in MOST cases, forced conversion is extremely prohibited. That was certainly the case throughout history, with Christians and Jews coexisting peacefully with Muslims.
 
this is good stuff to read;

The origins of the Janissaries are shrouded in myth though traditional accounts credit Orhan I – an early Ottoman bey, who reigned from 1326 to 1359 – as the founder.[3] Modern historians, such as Patrick Kinross, put the date slightly later, around 1365, under Orhan's son, Murad I, the first sultan of the Ottoman Empire.[1] The Janissaries became the first Ottoman standing army, replacing forces that mostly contained tribal warriors (ghazis) whose loyalty and morale were not always guaranteed.[1] From Murad I to 1648, the Janissaries were gathered through the devşirme system. This was the recruiting of non-Turkish children, notably Balkan Christians; Jews were never subject to devşirme, nor were children from Turkic families. In early days, all Christians were enrolled indiscriminately; later, those from Albania, Greece, Bosnia, Serbia and Bulgaria were preferred.[4][5]
The Janissaries were kapıkulları (sing. kapıkulu), "door servants" or "slaves of the Porte", neither free men nor ordinary slaves (Turkish: köle).[6] They were subject to strict discipline, but they were paid salaries and pensions on retirement, and were free to marry; those conscripted through devşirme formed a distinctive social class[7] which quickly became the ruling class of the Ottoman Empire, rivaling the Turkish aristocracy in one of the four royal institutions: the Palace, the Scribes, the Religious and the Military. The brightest of the Janissaries were sent to the Palace institution (Enderun), where the possibility of a glittering career beckoned.
According to military historian Michael Antonucci, every five years the Turkish administrators would scour their regions for the strongest sons of the sultan's Christian subjects. These boys, usually between the ages of 10 and 12, were then taken from their parents and given to the Turkish families in the provinces to learn Turkish language and customs, and the rules of Islam; these boys were then enrolled in Janissary training. The recruit was immediately indoctrinated into the religion of Islam. He was supervised 24 hours a day and subjected to severe discipline: he was prohibited from growing a beard, taking up a skill other than war, or marrying. The Janissaries were extremely well disciplined (a rarity in the Middle Ages).
Greek Historian Dimitri Kitsikis in his book, Türk Yunan İmparatorluğu ("Turco-Greek Empire")[4] states that many Christian families were willing to comply with devşirme because it offered the possibility of great social advancement. Conscripts could one day become Janissary colonels; statesmen who might one day return to their motherland as governor; or even Grand Vizier or Beylerbey (governor general), with a seat in the divan (imperial council).

Perhaps the most famous Janissaries were George Kastrioti Skanderbeg, son of a despot in northern Albania who later defected and led a 20-year Albanian revolt against the Ottomans, and Sokollu Mehmed Paşa, a Serbian peasant from Bosnia who later became a grand vizier, served three sultans, and was de facto ruler of the Ottoman Empire[8] for more than 14 years.The Ukrainian, Bulgarian and Serbian languages employed the name Janissary to refer to any warrior who converted from Christianity to Islam.
 
regular christian and jewish people were never forced to except islam under ottoman rule,,most of the goverment officals,ministers,ammbassaders(excuse ny english) were armenians,greeks and jews.greek skytv had a documantary last year called 1821 where they said greeks were free the practise their religion under ottoman rule which is oppisite of what the greek history book says..

i say it is a easy mat;ottoman ruled 600 years,that is allmost 10 generations,,if they wanted balkans(serbia,greece,bulgaria,hungary,......) muslim, they would be muslim today.

BTW guys ,,im not muslim,,im budhist,so im not taking a side on any religion
 
It certainly IS allowed, by sharia, in some instances. For an example, if a Muslim were to convert to another religion, then they are to be killed unless they repent and rejoin Islam. In some other instances, the Quran is not clear on the subject. Verses like "no compulsion in religion" that Mohammad came up with before al-hijra are very different from ones he wrote after he became powerful. It is really how you look at it. Most scholars would agree that in MOST cases, forced conversion is extremely prohibited. That was certainly the case throughout history, with Christians and Jews coexisting peacefully with Muslims.

I only would like to state again and again, Islam and muslims are two apart notions.

Other than this, your mouth would be stay open for days if you heard the things that some muslims manage to understand and came up with from the Quran :)

Lol, by the way I hope you got my earlier joke,

if you didn't, then please repeat after me,

"ash-heh-du-an-laa-elaa-heh-ill-la-Allah-va-ash-heh-du-an-laa-Mohammed-an-ra-soul-Allah"

Come on sir it's easy! :)

Edit : nevermind sir, saw your latter post.
 
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@ aybars,

Thanks for that reading, you tatooed budhist, now you repeat after me!

Meh, you know the drill...
 
@ aybars,

Thanks for that reading, you tatooed budhist, now you repeat after me!

Meh, you know the drill...

this one is special,,made in the same tample where Angelina jolie had hers

V8y8O.jpg



and this one when i was having my tiger(enother place) that guy told me he never seen any1 who smiles during tatoo work like the way i smile

gBOSN.jpg
 
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