Barkley Shaq Isaiah Reggie name Pimpslap 4th best stretch 4 in nba

[BTP]

I wonder how they categorize stretch 4's.

Dirk
Love
Bosh
Millsap
Anderson

I'm guessing that is how the list looks.

I'd guess it's PFs whose bread and butter is perimeter game. I guess these guys fit that description.
Not sure I'd pick Dirk over Love, but that list sounds good.

 

[Joe Bagadonuts]

So many livin' in the past. Jerry ain't coming back, John and Karl ain't coming back, Sap ain't coming back and he does not play for the Jazz anymore. Move on.

This is sort of earth shattering news. Are you serious? How about Corbin, Boozer, Handglotten and Jefferson?

 

[Stifle Tower]

No way in hell we should have kept Sap, and I find it extremely presumptuous to assume Sap even wanted to come back. The mistake made with Sap was not trading him during the lockout year. Period. Bringing him back would have meant a continuation of our DENIAL of the fact we are in rebuild mode now, WHETHER WE LIKE IT OR NOT.
-
Nothing bugs me more than people suggesting we should have tried to maintain a mediocre team rather than rolling the dice on trying to build something special. I love Sap as a player, and I would love to have him back, but for where this team is at, keeping Sap would have just compounded the mistake of screwing the pooch on the follow up moves after Deron was traded.

Jazz immediately informed Jefferson he wasn't in their plans after the season ended. But the media reported there were discussions between Millsap's agent and the Jazz right up until the GS deal came around. If you go back and read the newspaper reports (DN or Trib), there was apparently a divided FO on keeping Millsap or letting him go. And DMC also hung around until the Jazz informed him they were going in a different direction. But those chips didn't fall until AFTER GS made Lindsey an offer he couldn't refuse.

Also, remember early on, DL said they would be "value shoppers" in free agency. They were linked to quite a few players, including guys like Mayo. The team was rebuilding around Favors, Kanter and Hayward, but I believe there was serious debate on how that rebuild should proceed. Out with Mo, Foye and Al, but not necessarily out with Pal and DeMarre. But FA's were signing big contracts and GS stepped up with a great offer.

Had it not been for the perception of an historically great draft class, Utah may not have made the GS deal and chosen to spend their money on FA's, including keeping a couple of their own.

4/5: Millsap, Favors, Kanter
2/3: Hayward, DMC, Burks
1/2: Burke and F/A

Supplement with 1-2 key FA's. That's not a bad team. Still have youth, but also have a key veteran in Millsap. You can certainly argue that DMC would have been a better (and younger) fit than RJ. And Millsap was still young enough to give 5-6 more years of great play, eventually giving way as a starter to Kanter. He would have been an upgrade over Marvin Williams. Would have perhaps made the playoffs last season. Just for funz, assume the Jazz' pick would still have been Hood in the late teens/early 20's as we know he was valued that highly by Utah.

Essentially, Millsap and DMC were released to enable Utah to suck and get a top-10 pick. If Exum turns out to be someone special, it was a great move. If not, well, the terrible season was all in vain. Oh, except it gave Lindsey justification to get rid of Ty. So maybe even if Exum is a bust, it was still good.

 

[Joe Bagadonuts]

Jazz immediately informed Jefferson he wasn't in their plans after the season ended. But the media reported there were discussions between Millsap's agent and the Jazz right up until the GS deal came around. If you go back and read the newspaper reports (DN or Trib), there was apparently a divided FO on keeping Millsap or letting him go. And DMC also hung around until the Jazz informed him they were going in a different direction. But those chips didn't fall until AFTER GS made Lindsey an offer he couldn't refuse.

Also, remember early on, DL said they would be "value shoppers" in free agency. They were linked to quite a few players, including guys like Mayo. The team was rebuilding around Favors, Kanter and Hayward, but I believe there was serious debate on how that rebuild should proceed. Out with Mo, Foye and Al, but not necessarily out with Pal and DeMarre. But FA's were signing big contracts and GS stepped up with a great offer.

Had it not been for the perception of an historically great draft class, Utah may not have made the GS deal and chosen to spend their money on FA's, including keeping a couple of their own.

4/5: Millsap, Favors, Kanter
2/3: Hayward, DMC, Burks
1/2: Burke and F/A

Supplement with 1-2 key FA's. That's not a bad team. Still have youth, but also have a key veteran in Millsap. You can certainly argue that DMC would have been a better (and younger) fit than RJ. And Millsap was still young enough to give 5-6 more years of great play, eventually giving way as a starter to Kanter. He would have been an upgrade over Marvin Williams. Would have perhaps made the playoffs last season. Just for funz, assume the Jazz' pick would still have been Hood in the late teens/early 20's as we know he was valued that highly by Utah.

Essentially, Millsap and DMC were released to enable Utah to suck and get a top-10 pick. If Exum turns out to be someone special, it was a great move. If not, well, the terrible season was all in vain. Oh, except it gave Lindsey justification to get rid of Ty. So maybe even if Exum is a bust, it was still good.

This is an excellent post, but it is still my belief that Lindsey was handling a sensitive situation in the best way he could, and that is why he did not just outright send Millsap walking. It was much easier to sell ownership and even the fanbase on it once he found the Golden State trade. Going full rebuild was a difficult decision (so difficult that the Jazz, prior to Lindsey, were incapable of making it) but it was definitely the right one.

And BTW, you can throw into your final paragraph that gambit could also pay off if Hood blows up. That certainly looks like a long-term possibility. I absolutely believe that Exum (high risk/high reward) was the right play at 3, and I think the Hood/Snyder pickups could be just the get out of jail free card that DL needs if for some reason Dante doesn't work out.

One last thing: I still don't understand why they didn't bring Carroll back.

 

[♪alt13]

This is an excellent post, but it is still my belief that Lindsey was handling a sensitive situation in the best way he could, and that is why he did not just outright send Millsap walking. It was much easier to sell ownership and even the fanbase on it once he found the Golden State trade. Going full rebuild was a difficult decision (so difficult that the Jazz, prior to Lindsey, were incapable of making it) but it was definitely the right one.

And BTW, you can throw into your final paragraph that gambit could also pay off if Hood blows up. That certainly looks like a long-term possibility. I absolutely believe that Exum (high risk/high reward) was the right play at 3, and I think the Hood/Snyder pickups could be just the get out of jail free card that DL needs if for some reason Dante doesn't work out.

One last thing: I still don't understand why they didn't bring Carroll back.

I don't get it either

 

[Joe Bagadonuts]

I don't get it either

It's weird. They pick up an ordinary looking stone then brush it off and discover it's a diamond in the rough... and then they simply throw it away as if it were nothing but an ordinary stone.

 

[Stifle Tower]

This is an excellent post, but it is still my belief that Lindsey was handling a sensitive situation in the best way he could, and that is why he did not just outright send Millsap walking. It was much easier to sell ownership and even the fanbase on it once he found the Golden State trade. Going full rebuild was a difficult decision (so difficult that the Jazz, prior to Lindsey, were incapable of making it) but it was definitely the right one.

And BTW, you can throw into your final paragraph that gambit could also pay off if Hood blows up. That certainly looks like a long-term possibility. I absolutely believe that Exum (high risk/high reward) was the right play at 3, and I think the Hood/Snyder pickups could be just the get out of jail free card that DL needs if for some reason Dante doesn't work out.

One last thing: I still don't understand why they didn't bring Carroll back.

Could be. As you said. it was a delicate and difficult situation. There are certainly enough mins for a 3-man rotation at the 4/5 (32 each), but all three guys wanted to start. And paying Paul big money would have potentially (if Kanter is re-signed), tied up a ton of money in three bigs, with Hayward's new deal TBD at that time. Also, we don't know what Millsap was asking for. It could very well have been in the $12M/per range. He had to take a bargain contract with Atlanta because they were the only team to pursue him after Utah backed away.

It WAS the right play to rebuild the way DL did. I just wanted to make the point that the FO was divided. And I think for that very reason Lindsey was brought in when he was. The rebuild started under KOC with the Deron trade. KOC also started to unwind contracts. I know many fault him for getting "nothing in return" for Boozer, AK, Millsap and Jefferson. What we DO know is those players WERE shopped. Heck, he even let Boozer go on a summer tour while he was still under contract and talk to teams, which was technically a violation of the "tampering" rules. But what KOC ABSOLUTELY did NOT want was to take back longer contracts. And it was the financial flexibility that allowed the GS deal to happen.

Lindsey comes into play as the new guy, with no ties to any of the players or the HC. In essence, KOC and the Millers can step back and put all the changes on his head, however unpopular they might be.

As for DMC, I think there were three reasons:
1. DL wanted as weak a bench as possible. Obviously, when you bring in RJ, Rush and Biedrins, you aren't trading to compete. Millsap, DMC or any of the other vets would have made the team better, resulting in more wins. Can there be any doubt when you have Lucas and Tinsley on the roster what the intent is?

2. I think DMC was undervalued and underdeveloped by the Jazz. High-energy player who gambled on defense. Not a very good shooter. And he would have remained that way had he not gone to Atlanta and found a bright assistant by the name of Quin Snyder to believe in him and develop his game. He WAS a diamond in the rough. But it took Quin, the gem cutter, to refine the many facets to his game and make him shine.

3. DL wanted the "core5" to play big minutes and develop together. Having another wing would have taken time away from Alec. Of course, DL didn't foresee Ty playing RJ and Harris so much (and moving Marvin to PF). DMC would have seen marginal playing time behind RJ. And Alec would have gotten 15 mins/per behind Gordon.

 

[Joe Bagadonuts]

^Another excellent post. You're killing it!

 

[Stifle Tower]

^Another excellent post. You're killing it!

Thanks. You too.

As much as I like DMC, I think Hood will be a better SF for us. It really comes down to finding that core 8 or 9, fitting them in comfortably under the luxury tax limit and then backfilling with bargain vets and young players.

SF/SG (3): I really like Hayward, Burks and Hood as the wings. Gordon and Rodney can play the 2 or 3. And despite Alec's struggles, the Jazz would be well-served to continue developing him at the spot in case of emergency/injuries.
PG (2); Burke may prove me wrong after all. I've been down on him, but he's having a stellar preseason. Keep it up and I may have to start an official "I was wrong / my deepest apologies to Trey" thread. Exum is still a big unknown. And Neto may yet be one of those cheap rookies we can bring over in 1-2 more years.
PF/C (3): Favors and Gobert look like keepers. Can Kanter be the third big? IS he worth a huge contract? That's TBD, IMO. If not, the Jazz turn to guys like Booker and specialists like Novak to man the position while targeting an eventual replacement via the draft or in a trade.

I've probably had too much Kool-aid (or Diet Coke), but I'm pretty excited about this team. I think Utah needs to do 3 things:

1. Keep Alec or replace him with an equally talented player. If he wants too much (or gets a huge offer sheet), Hayward can always move back to SG, with Hood starting at SF. Then find a third wing for the rotation. Exum is also a consideration (MAYBE) to play some minutes at the 2.

2. Find a stud PF. Could be Kanter, could be someone TBD. Also, in the next 2 years, I think Gobert will force the Jazz to find 30 mins/per for him. That means Favors has to develop some range so he can play around 15 minutes of his time at PF.

3. Getter better at PG. Would LOVE to see Burke and Exum splitting time at PG and both killing it in their own ways. But neither is a sure bet. Exum was, IMO, the highest risk/reward player in the draft. And Burke has struggled with shooting and defense.

Maybe I am too optimistic. But the Jazz may very well have their core already in place (or be 1 player away). Lindsey has been phenomenal in the last 2 drafts. I can't wait to see who the Jazz add next season - or if they make a trade. Might start cashing in some of those picks.

 

[Stoked]

I'd love to see what Carroll would do on this team under Snyder.

Favors/Gobert
Kanter/Booker/Evans
Hayward/Carroll/Novak
Burks/Hood/Felix
Burke/Exum/Clark

I'd love that team even more than I love this team!

That would be such a scrappy second unit of Gobert, Booker, Carroll, Hood and Exum.