Bin Laden is dead

[sirkickyass]

First of all the Obama Regime said the information came from multiple detainees, so you have a problem if you want to hang your hat on one terrorist.

Secondly, you would have to assume that KSM was one of those detainees, and that the waterboarding that occurred before the information came out had no effect on KSM's willingness to talk.

Both of these would make sense if I wasn't rebutting the following claim:

Apparently the info that led the CIA to the courier which eventually led us to bin Laden was acquired by using the much derided water boarding technique on none other than Khalid Sheikh Mohammed and was consequently confirmed by water boarding a second detainee.

So you see you're arguing against something else entirely while I'm rebutting Marcus' claim specifically. Your point #1 and half of your point #2 actually support my argument. The second half of your point #2 (that waterboarding "softened him up" for later) is not the point that Marcus was trying to make (in which he claimed that waterboarding was the direct link rather than a far back in time indirect link) and is not supported by any evidence and is thus irrelevant.

Frankly, I value Cheney's informed beliefs over your "reasoned arguments" any day.

What is that opinion based on? He just baldly said it with no basis other than a belief that justifies things he already believed. He has acknowledged he has no inside information on the subject in his ABC interview today: "And I don't know the details. All I know is what I've seen in the newspaper at this point ... "


The Press Secretary and the chairman of the Senate Intelligence Committee, both of whom have a more current window than Cheney, are saying that there's no evidence that some key piece of information was obtained as a result of waterboarding. There is some evidence (reported by NPR today) that KSM specifically denied al Kuwaiti's involvement while being waterboarded. Those involved seem to indicate it was the culmination of a lot of intelligence gathered from a lot of different sources. Trying to say that the specific decision to torture a specific person was the key is specious and the worst kind of false patriotism.

Put frankly, if the killing of Osama Bin Laden is used to justify torture tactics going forward then everybody loses.

 

[Deleted member 365]

Gotta love this dandy from troutbum:

Funny how you disapeared from the Bin Laden thread after your *** was handed to you. Well done, tool.

Actually, not.

I just figured I said all that needed to be said. We're just going to have to agree to disagree.

I wonder if you would have a different opinion had you actually gotten off your fat *** and served in the military. Or if the only remains of your "madame" was some charred fingers at ground zero. Too easy to criticize your fellow Americans while playing poker and "talking" about war.

It's real easy to play call of duty and call yourself a hard ***. Or to act all tough on the Internet while selling insurance, *** wipe.

But it's completely wrong to judge the American nation after this. Many people had their lives ruined by this man. Most military men have been influenced in one way or another. While all Americans have felt his influence.

With all the other **** that's going on with this country, it's about ****ing time we have something to get excited about. Our intelligence can still find answers, our military can still accomplish something, and the war on terror might not be a losing war (for us).

So yeah, that's it buddy. I guess you really destroyed me. Had my *** handed to me....

 

[PearlWatson]

Both of these would make sense if I wasn't rebutting the following claim:
So you see you're arguing against something else entirely while I'm rebutting Marcus' claim specifically.

It is best not to make a rebuttal to Marcus when you are responding to me.

These are the key parts of our debate, and it appears as though you kicked your own *** in it:

Isn't the much better story for America that we got him without having to resort to torture?

We got him because of CIA "interrogators" in secret prisons, so that "story" would be false.

because they stopped waterboarding KSM before they got the critical intelligence they could not have received the information from KSM as a result of waterboarding.

See how you claim we got him without resorting to torture but then go on to say in your "reasoned argument" that we resorted to torture but it didn't work because waterboarding occurred before we got the information.

 

[PearlWatson]

Put frankly, if the killing of Osama Bin Laden is used to justify torture tactics going forward then everybody loses.

That is liberal nonsense. The only people that lose are the terrorists.

 

[TroutBum]

Gotta love this dandy from troutbum:



Actually, not.

I just figured I said all that needed to be said. We're just going to have to agree to disagree.

I wonder if you would have a different opinion had you actually gotten off your fat *** and served in the military. Or if the only remains of your "madame" was some charred fingers at ground zero. Too easy to criticize your fellow Americans while playing poker and "talking" about war.

It's real easy to play call of duty and call yourself a hard ***. Or to act all tough on the Internet while selling insurance, *** wipe.

But it's completely wrong to judge the American nation after this. Many people had their lives ruined by this man. Most military men have been influenced in one way or another. While all Americans have felt his influence.

With all the other **** that's going on with this country, it's about ****ing time we have something to get excited about. Our intelligence can still find answers, our military can still accomplish something, and the war on terror might not be a losing war (for us).

So yeah, that's it buddy. I guess you really destroyed me. Had my *** handed to me....

Well, I guess you showed me. I mean, I was leaning toward non-destruction, but that picture of Ground Zero really put it over the edge. Well done. I'll just go back to hating America and selling insurance. Forgive the intrusion.

 

[franklin]

I listened to a little Rush the other day and laughed when he used the term, "Regime" when talking about Obama. Clearly, MillHopper is all aboard the dumbass train.

You're a boring troll, and while I'm at it you're on my **** list for ruining my very first use of the ignore feature. I read this thread twice, and it was head and shoulders better the second time.

 

[TroutBum]

You're a boring troll, and while I'm at it you're on my **** list for ruining my very first use of the ignore feature. I read this thread twice, and it was head and shoulders better the second time.

Dude, this actually hurts a little.

 

[Deleted member 365]

Well, I guess you showed me. I mean, I was leaning toward non-destruction, but that picture of Ground Zero really put it over the edge. Well done. I'll just go back to hating America and selling insurance. Forgive the intrusion.

Yeah, and you surely beat my *** with creative zingers like these:

Your stupidity knows no bounds

Bummer, better luck next time, *** face.

p.s. please don't ever have children.

Funny how you disapeared from the Bin Laden thread after your *** was handed to you. Well done, tool.

Good job *** wipe.

 

[sirkickyass]

It is best not to make a rebuttal to Marcus when you are responding to me.

You may want to go back and look at the chronology. You waded in to respond to my statements to Marcus. Sorry, you don't get to dictate the strand of my thoughts.

These are the key parts of our debate, and it appears as though you kicked your own *** in it:

I don't think we're really debating because you're not really participating in anything but talking points. It's entirely unclear from your advocacy if you believe torture is a good idea or not.

If you really think there's an inconsistency in saying it's a better story if we didn't have to resort to torture to get Bin Laden and saying that the timeline is inconsistent with the notion that torture was the key factor in getting Bin Laden then I don't know what to tell you. It's obvious you're seeing what you want to see as per usual.

See how you claim we got him without resorting to torture but then go on to say in your "reasoned argument" that we resorted to torture but it didn't work because waterboarding occurred before we got the information.

I think you're confused between the statement that torture has never occurred ever (which would be moronic) and the statement that torture wasn't a significant or the key factor in killing Bin Laden. I'm saying the latter; you're trying to attribute to me the former.

 

[sirkickyass]

That is liberal nonsense. The only people that lose are the terrorists.

As predicted, there's liberal as an epithet.

We must agree to disagree on the issue of whether or not torture is ever justified. Although I think this gives the lie to your statements about the role of the state and its relation to the individual. If saying that torture is wrong makes me a liberal then I'll wear the label proudly.

I'll take it one step farther and associate myself with the most Christ-like political speech I've ever seen, which was uttered by a Socialist.

Years ago I recognized my kinship with all living beings, and I made up my mind that I was not one bit better than the meanest on earth. I said then, and I say now, that while there is a lower class, I am in it, and while there is a criminal element I am of it, and while there is a soul in prison, I am not free.

The politics of otherization and the creation of "states of exception" in which all humans have rights except the ones we call our enemies does damage to the souls of us all and should be avoided and condemned. And yes, this is as close to religious as I get.

 

[franklin]

Sorry, you don't get to dictate the strand of my thoughts.

Who did you steal this line from? I want to read who you get all your paraphrases from so I can understand your absurd *** better.

It's entirely unclear from your advocacy if you believe torture is a good idea or not.

Complain harder when someone uses your m.o. will ya.

 

[franklin]

I'll take it one step farther and associate myself with the most Christ-like political speech I've ever seen, which was uttered by a Socialist.

Hellenized Christianity or Kickyass Christianity is all the same. It's all in the eye of the interpreter... which gets to the point of the foundation of this nation, IMO. But that's a discussion this board doesn't like.

Say, fellas, let us nail some ears to some wood right naw.