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Bin Laden is dead

Considering you used those semantics to attack me outright I do not think it was that far-fetched to defend myself against your uninformed denigrations and false accusations.
It was not uninformed nor was it false. It was you all over the place, trying tt hide behind semantics. My point didn't change one bit with your semantics.

Yeah, so we have proven that we already showed that we did not find it preferable to kill everyone in the compound, as you asserted. We also showed that we did not find it preferable to kill a bunch of women and children. I guess you expected to be able to make unfounded inflamatory statements and have everyone just bow before you for some reason. Speaking out of your *** can come back to bite you.
You're all over the place again. If you found it preferable to raid the place, even if it meant kneeling him down and putting a bullet in his head, then there is no further discussion. Because whatever happened in that compound, the only alternative was to bomb the place.

I also find it telling that you apparently viewed the raid as having the sole purpose of killing OBL. Do you think Obama ordered his assassination outright, or do you think he sent them in to apprehend him, using deadly force where necessary? If fact if you think the raid was to kill him outright, you are dead wrong. Here is what Obama said himself about the raid:
The whole purpose of the raid was to kill or capture Bin Laden. That has been the mission since W. If it comes out that Obama (who ordered the mission) ordered the killing of Bin Laden, then that would mean the purpose of the mission was to kill him- whether anyone else knew it or not. I'm not saying Obama told them to kill him outright, but I doubt Obama told them to bring him in alive at all costs either. These were not police officers, they were the best killers the nation has to offer.

You assumed the raid was specifically to do nothing but kill OBL (which Obama said was not the case), then you assumed that was simply common knowledge, instead of reading to understand the opinions already provided. So then you feel the need to call them out as "clowns" and such since they are ignoring the OBVIOUS FACT (obvious and fact to you only, not to everyone else involved, including Obama) that they were there to kill him to begin with, so obviously we are all stupid for wanting to blow up babies instead of just simply murder OBL. Your assumptions cause you to make an *** of yourself. Try reading to understand first, then post.
Um, yeah, Obama sent in the best killers the nation has to offer with the full intention of NOT killing America's biggest threat and biggest enemy. Hell yeah you're a clown if you actually believe that.
 
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Again you limit the possible options. Wow you really do think in black and white. I would hate to be your kid.

One Brow is completely correct. It was preferrable to bring OBL to justice, try him for his crimes, and do it all within the international laws we agreed to adhere to. You jump straight to the extremes. Osama had to die in this raid no matter what or how...or...no one should ever be killed at all no matter what.

I believe One Brow and I share the opinion that we feel the Seals did just what they were supposed to. I believe they worked within the law. We do not know for certain and will not until the debriefing and investaigations are complete, but we certainly hope that holds up to scrutiny.

That has been the big difference in this argument. We find it necessary that we do things the right way, by rule of law, and within the framework of the agreements our country has co-authored and signed. Others feel it is ok to toss those laws and agreements out the window because "this is war" and "he deserved to die" and "people are going to die". That is just horrible reasoning for throwing away the laws and ethics that make for a civilized society, imo.
Nobody is throwing away any laws or ethics. Killing Bin Laden was totally justified, and totally legal.
 
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Seals

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Sorry, it's just been bugging me.
 
Again you limit the possible options. Wow you really do think in black and white. I would hate to be your kid.

One Brow is completely correct. It was preferrable to bring OBL to justice, try him for his crimes, and do it all within the international laws we agreed to adhere to. You jump straight to the extremes. Osama had to die in this raid no matter what or how...or...no one should ever be killed at all no matter what.

I believe One Brow and I share the opinion that we feel the Seals did just what they were supposed to. I believe they worked within the law. We do not know for certain and will not until the debriefing and investaigations are complete, but we certainly hope that holds up to scrutiny.

That has been the big difference in this argument. We find it necessary that we do things the right way, by rule of law, and within the framework of the agreements our country has co-authored and signed. Others feel it is ok to toss those laws and agreements out the window because "this is war" and "he deserved to die" and "people are going to die". That is just horrible reasoning for throwing away the laws and ethics that make for a civilized society, imo.

To my knowledge the United States has not ratified several of the international laws you are referencing.
 
You're all over the place again. If you found it preferable to raid the place, even if it meant kneeling him down and putting a bullet in his head, then there is no further discussion. Because whatever happened in that compound, the only alternative was to bomb the place.

The whole purpose of the raid was to kill or capture Bin Laden.

Um, yeah, Obama sent in the best killers the nation has to offer with the full intention of NOT killing America's biggest threat and biggest enemy. Hell yeah you're a clown if you actually believe that.

Ok so again, you speak in absolutes completely ignoring what has already been said. See, I already said it was preferable to raid the compound and SPECIFICALLY NOT kneel him down and summarily execute him. You seem to be unable to separate the 2 for whatever reason. Bombing it was not the only other option. Wow are you really that dense? Do you really think the strategy meeting went:

"Ok what are the options."

"Bust in there, kneel him down, and shoot him in the head."

"Ok other options."

"Bomb the bejeebus out of it killing everyone."

"Ok any others?"

"Nope, that's it."

And talk about being all over the place. You specifically state the purpose of the raid was to kill OBL, then when presented with evidence to the contrary, you change your story to say "kill or capture". Nice back-pedal there, sticking to your story.

You are also woefully uninformed about our military if you think the only reason the Seals are in existence is to go around slaughtering people at the behest of the president. They are trained for missions like this, not just a bunch of rabid dogs with no understanding of anything but kill kill kill. Obama said, they were to bring OBL to justice. Obviously they were authorized to use deadly force in attempting to apprehend him. But I assure you they are trained to do more than just kill. You need to get the image of Schwarzenegger jumping up out of a stream with twin M60's mowing down everyone around him out of your head. If they could have apprehended him alive, I believe they would have, since that is what the President said the mission was. And I certainly hope they didn't apprehend him then kneel him down and shoot him in the head, even if it had been their direct order. That would have been illegal.
 
To my knowledge the United States has not ratified several of the international laws you are referencing.

The US has ratified the entirety of the GC. There are other provisions added since the 70's that I believe they may have abstained from, but what I have been referencing was contained in the original treaties.
 
Ok so again, you speak in absolutes completely ignoring what has already been said. See, I already said it was preferable to raid the compound and SPECIFICALLY NOT kneel him down and summarily execute him. You seem to be unable to separate the 2 for whatever reason. Bombing it was not the only other option. Wow are you really that dense? Do you really think the strategy meeting went:

"Ok what are the options."

"Bust in there, kneel him down, and shoot him in the head."

"Ok other options."

"Bomb the bejeebus out of it killing everyone."

"Ok any others?"

"Nope, that's it."

And talk about being all over the place. You specifically state the purpose of the raid was to kill OBL, then when presented with evidence to the contrary, you change your story to say "kill or capture". Nice back-pedal there, sticking to your story.

You are also woefully uninformed about our military if you think the only reason the Seals are in existence is to go around slaughtering people at the behest of the president. They are trained for missions like this, not just a bunch of rabid dogs with no understanding of anything but kill kill kill. Obama said, they were to bring OBL to justice. Obviously they were authorized to use deadly force in attempting to apprehend him. But I assure you they are trained to do more than just kill. You need to get the image of Schwarzenegger jumping up out of a stream with twin M60's mowing down everyone around him out of your head. If they could have apprehended him alive, I believe they would have, since that is what the President said the mission was. And I certainly hope they didn't apprehend him then kneel him down and shoot him in the head, even if it had been their direct order. That would have been illegal.

I am not backpedaling from a damn thing. I said the mission was to "capture or kill Bin Laden" as in, "we don't care either way as long as one of them gets done." The mission was never claimed to be "capture Bin Laden unless he starts shooting as us then kill him" or whatever you are trying to make it. Killing him has always been an acceptable outcome.

So your bogus strategy meeting aside, I think it went down something like this:

Obama: What are the options?
Adviser # 1: We can probably get him alive if we get lucky and catch them totally off guard.
Obama: Then what do we do with him?
Adviser # 2: We could hold him on a sub somewhere and extract whatever intel he gives us, and then put him on trial under a military court on the sub.
Obama: I can't really do that after I campaigned against it. Plus the pressure from the rest of the world would be pretty great to give him a normal trial, and the red cross would entitled to inspections.
Adviser # 3: We could just bomb the place and kill everyone inside. He'd be dead for sure.
Obama: The collateral damage would be too great. If we're doing this without getting approval from Pakistan, we don't want any collateral damage.
Obama: Lets just have the best of both worlds... Lets raid the place and catch them totally off guard. That way we can hopefully get all of the computers and we don't even need to interrogate Bin Laden. And if we catch any fire from any of them at any point during the raid, we can justify killing Bin Laden. Then we'll throw his body in the ocean so the terrorists don't have a shrine.

It is HIGHLY possible, even PROBABLE that it went down like that. Even dutch, who you jumped into this to agree with, is saying that it probably went down like that. If you don't think that is pretty dang close to what happened, then you're off your rocker.

Again, the Obama administration has said several times now that bombing the compound was the only alternative to this raid, and at least some advisers pressed for that option with Obama over ruling them.

So I ask again, even if they knelt Bin laden down and shot him in the head, would you prefer that to bombing the compound? Because it's pretty clear Bin Laden was getting killed either way. Taking him alive was not a serious option. If it were a serious option, they would have tased him, gassed him, shot him in the leg, or any number of non lethal forces the US military has at its disposal.

They didn't do any of that. They shot him in the head. Why? Because that is what they went there to do.
 
Justified and legal?

where you there? did you wtiness it? do you have hard evidence?
I can tell you it was absolutely justified no matter what any law says. I didn't have to be there for that.

As for it being legal- were you there? Do you have any evidence that it was not legal?
 
I can tell you it was absolutely justified no matter what any law says. I didn't have to be there for that.

As for it being legal- were you there? Do you have any evidence that it was not legal?

justified how so do explain.

not because i wasnt there or dont have evidence that it was not legal makes it legal.


I am just saying the legality may be in question. but since you are so sure about the legality and justifiability. I asked you for the evidence?

I never said i am 100% sure it was justified and legal. imho it is in question.
 
justified how so do explain.

I think he's saying that there was no question as to what Bin Laden was guilty of, so he deserved to die. By bombing, shoot-out, heart attack, execution-style shooting after being rendered helpless, being drawn and quartered, whatever.
 
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