BMore Riots?

[BabyPeterzz]

Actually no

Rioting and looting directly damages the worthy cause of the other protestors. It turns people against them and closes their minds. It's one of the most damaging actions the can take.

They are not one in the same. They are in direct conflict and opposing actions.

Outrage rarely takes forms that everyone approves of. Just because you don't agree with it or understand it doesn't make their grievances any less valid.

A revolution must take place to change the current state of affairs and very rarely, if ever, has revolution taken place without violence.

 

[RandyForRubio]

Revolution against a tyrannical government: that's fine. Revolt against your leaders, against the authorities, that actually shoes something.

Revolting against your local CVS, your liquor store, your furniture store: what does that do? Who does that help?

You're ignoring this wrong because of other wrongs, which is horribly misguided. Yes, we have serious issues. That doesn't mean we need to harm our communities more.

 

[BabyPeterzz]

Revolution against a tyrannical government: that's fine. Revolt against your leaders, against the authorities, that actually shoes something.

Revolting against your local CVS, your liquor store, your furniture store: what does that do? Who does that help?

You're ignoring this wrong because of other wrongs, which is horribly misguided. Yes, we have serious issues. That doesn't mean we need to harm our communities more.

Why is everyone trying to frame these riots into their own little comfortable box? "Violence can only take place in an acceptable manner." Violence and anger don't work that way. It's unpredictable. It's not like these people met before hand, planned their riot, and executed their plan. **** exploded and all hell broke loose. That's what we're dealing with here and everyone should be paying attention.

Riots and violence are a product of oppression. I'm not ignoring anything, the riots are unfortunate but important. I would argue that you and many here are dismissing the riots as senseless violence and refusing to try and understand their meaning. How pissed off do people need to get for some of you to listen? Those dismissing what is happening and trying to discredit their plight because of violence are part of the problem. You can't keep ignoring this and hope it just goes away.

 

[Stoked]

Why is everyone trying to frame these riots into their own little comfortable box? "Violence can only take place in an acceptable manner." Violence and anger don't work that way. It's unpredictable. It's not like these people met before hand, planned their riot, and executed their plan. **** exploded and all hell broke loose. That's what we're dealing with here and everyone should be paying attention.

Riots and violence are a product of oppression. I'm not ignoring anything, the riots are unfortunate but important. I would argue that you and many here are dismissing the riots as senseless violence and refusing to try and understand their meaning. How pissed off do people need to get for some of you to listen? Those dismissing what is happening and trying to discredit their plight because of violence are part of the problem. You can't keep ignoring this and hope it just goes away.

We are listening. There are some good and valid complaints and some changes must be made.

But changes need to be made on all sides.

After listening and watching I am saying that while peoples feelings are real the rioters actions are the worst possible thing they could do. All it will do is divide even more.

Anger is real. But this notion that people are not listening or paying attention because they don't agree 100% with everything is simply untrue.

Real changes need to be made across the board. Police training, tactics, make up, public relations... But also within the individual racial communities. Education, entertainment, news, drugs use...

Having said that. I absolutely reject these riots and associated activities. The protestors (not the rioters) and community and racial leaders need to up the ante against these more extreme elements. They need to make it socially ostracizing to engage in this behavior (and hate filled positions and actions) across all segments of society.

 

[LogGrad98]

Why is everyone trying to frame these riots into their own little comfortable box? "Violence can only take place in an acceptable manner." Violence and anger don't work that way. It's unpredictable. It's not like these people met before hand, planned their riot, and executed their plan. **** exploded and all hell broke loose. That's what we're dealing with here and everyone should be paying attention.

Riots and violence are a product of oppression. I'm not ignoring anything, the riots are unfortunate but important. I would argue that you and many here are dismissing the riots as senseless violence and refusing to try and understand their meaning. How pissed off do people need to get for some of you to listen? Those dismissing what is happening and trying to discredit their plight because of violence are part of the problem. You can't keep ignoring this and hope it just goes away.

You make it sound like riots and all rioters only have higher motives, as agents for change. You are completely ignoring the fact that the real change agents had marches and protests ahead of the riots, and that most rioters are opportunists seeking to get away with whatever they can. Time for a new tv when the riots hit. Unless you think looting people in the same situation you are in is a valid way to show your disfavor with the establishment.

FWIW I agree with stoked completely in all this.

 

[BabyPeterzz]

You make it sound like riots and all rioters only have higher motives, as agents for change. You are completely ignoring the fact that the real change agents had marches and protests ahead of the riots, and that most rioters are opportunists seeking to get away with whatever they can. Time for a new tv when the riots hit. Unless you think looting people in the same situation you are in is a valid way to show your disfavor with the establishment.

FWIW I agree with stoked completely in all this.

Peaceful protest and riots are not mutually exclusive, as we've seen here and in Ferguson. I'm not justifying the violence, I'm just acknowledging that it's an unfortunate byproduct of the situation. I'm sorry that not all the people of Baltimore are not responding to oppression, poverty, abuse, and murder the way you find socially acceptable, but I guess you can't make everyone happy, or control everyone's actions and intentions.

No matter how hard you try, no matter how high your horse is, you'll never be able to put a bow on this situation and bring about change in ways that make you comfortable. Which is sad, because this is your fight too. Our fellow countrymen are suffering, and everyone is looking for excuses not to support them.

You guys should go to Baltimore and tell them how to feel and how to protest.

 

[The Thriller]

We are listening. There are some good and valid complaints and some changes must be made.

But changes need to be made on all sides.

After listening and watching I am saying that while peoples feelings are real the rioters actions are the worst possible thing they could do. All it will do is divide even more.

Anger is real. But this notion that people are not listening or paying attention because they don't agree 100% with everything is simply untrue.

Real changes need to be made across the board. Police training, tactics, make up, public relations... But also within the individual racial communities. Education, entertainment, news, drugs use...

Having said that. I absolutely reject these riots and associated activities. The protestors (not the rioters) and community and racial leaders need to up the ante against these more extreme elements. They need to make it socially ostracizing to engage in this behavior (and hate filled positions and actions) across all segments of society.

What compromises will honestly be made?

Please, name me 5 realistic changes that will be made?

That's the core problem here. These poor people know that no matter how logical or peaceful they may sound, nothing will change. So why not resort to violence?

Will the state and federal governments finally step in to clear the plight and actually invest in this city? No.

Will the children finally receive the education money they need to get out of poverty? No.

Will families finally receive affordable and comfortable housing conducive to a stable environment? No.

Will businesses that left come back to provide salaries that enable these people to get off welfare and food stamps? No.

So why the hell not burn the bitch down?

I totally understand their frustration and hopelessness.

While we've been rebuilding other countries we have completely neglected our own. Our infrastructure? Is crumbling. Our own schools? Are closing early and filing for bankruptcy (ex Kansas, Wisconsin, Louisana). Salaries for the middle class? Stagnant. Had just min wage kept up with inflation we would see a min wage of $18 bucks per hr. Our health care system is a joke as the #1 cause for individuals filing for bankruptcy in our nation is due to health care costs. Places like Detroit, Cleveland, and Baltimore should have never happened. The wealth inequality that we see currently see today should have never occurred.

While average Americans bitch about blacks burning down Baltimore we turn a blind eye to American capitalists exploiting cheap labor in sweat shop factories in communist countries. Nothing shows patriotism more than throwing people in Baltimore out of work while moving your operations to employ communists in China.

Until we wake up the moral compass of our country and focus on our own nation, nothing will change. In 2 weeks Baltimore will be forgotten again and the neglect will continue. The people in Baltimore certainly are living an endless and hopeless nightmare until we wake up. Until Baltimore residents are joined with Kansas or Wisconsin residents pissed over the failure of tinkle down in their state, nothing will change.

This isn't a race issue. It's an economic issue. The focus needs to shift from enriching a few back to enriching the country.

 

[LogGrad98]

Peaceful protest and riots are not mutually exclusive, as we've seen here and in Ferguson. I'm not justifying the violence, I'm just acknowledging that it's an unfortunate byproduct of the situation. I'm sorry that not all the people of Baltimore are not responding to oppression, poverty, abuse, and murder the way you find socially acceptable, but I guess you can't make everyone happy, or control everyone's actions and intentions.

No matter how hard you try, no matter how high your horse is, you'll never be able to put a bow on this situation and bring about change in ways that make you comfortable. Which is sad, because this is your fight too. Our fellow countrymen are suffering, and everyone is looking for excuses not to support them.

You guys should go to Baltimore and tell them how to feel and how to protest.

I agree with you that they are not mutually exclusive, but their motives, root causes, and outcomes are generally decidedly different. One does not justify the other. Just because a protest was held ahead of time does not excuse the rioters from acting like animals. Look up the protests held in east germany, in Leipzig, in the 80's. Literally hundreds of thousands marched through the streets here with no shedding of blood. A protest does not have to lead to a riot, and certainly does not excuse it or the rioters from their personal accountability.

 

[BabyPeterzz]

We are listening. There are some good and valid complaints and some changes must be made.

But changes need to be made on all sides.

After listening and watching I am saying that while peoples feelings are real the rioters actions are the worst possible thing they could do. All it will do is divide even more.

Anger is real. But this notion that people are not listening or paying attention because they don't agree 100% with everything is simply untrue.

Real changes need to be made across the board. Police training, tactics, make up, public relations... But also within the individual racial communities. Education, entertainment, news, drugs use...

Having said that. I absolutely reject these riots and associated activities. The protestors (not the rioters) and community and racial leaders need to up the ante against these more extreme elements. They need to make it socially ostracizing to engage in this behavior (and hate filled positions and actions) across all segments of society.

How do you propose the powerless bring about change? It's easy for you to look down on the situation and try to dictate how they should be going about their business. We all, especially those of us who have benefitted directly or indirectly from the corralling of the poor in our inner cities, to support the struggle. You don't have to support the violence, but using it as an excuse to down play or discredit what is happening is willfully ignorant.

We agree, riots are bad. But they are happening and won't stop until the country does something about it. Looking down your nose at the minority of violent protestors does nothing, other than make yourself feel better perhaps.

I'm reacting to those trying to discredit what those people are going through because violence has erupted. Violence will always be part of this issue unfortunately. So how do you feel about these people, the police, our country, the poor, black people without using the violence as a scape goat?

 

[BabyPeterzz]

I agree with you that they are not mutually exclusive, but their motives, root causes, and outcomes are generally decidedly different. One does not justify the other. Just because a protest was held ahead of time does not excuse the rioters from acting like animals. Look up the protests held in east germany, in Leipzig, in the 80's. Literally hundreds of thousands marched through the streets here with no shedding of blood. A protest does not have to lead to a riot, and certainly does not excuse it or the rioters from their personal accountability.

There is no magic recipe for protest, outrage, and violence. Again, you try to frame the situation in ways you can understand. I get it, but thats not the way life works. There is no prescription for bringing about change, otherwise we'd have all the answers, public protests would all be the same, and all would be good in the world. Thats not reality and probably never will be. Change is messy and violent often times. I can point to just as many violent protests that have brought about change to peaceful protest. In fact, I'll bet I could double you.

Again, I'm not going to argue that the rioters are right. What they are doing is wrong. But if you take a step back you realize that it's all part of the bigger picture. See the forest through the trees.

 

[GVC]

We are listening.

Was that before the **** hit the fan?

You make it sound like riots and all rioters only have higher motives, as agents for change. You are completely ignoring the fact that the real change agents had marches and protests ahead of the riots, and that most rioters are opportunists seeking to get away with whatever they can.

What seems fairly obvious is that stoked, log and others agree (to some degree, anyway) that poverty, unequal opportunity and segregation are real problems in America. In spite of this, the conversation here is not about our own culpability and responsibility in addressing this problem, but in how we can excuse our own apathy/indifference. That there have to be riots for us to notice a problem is telling. We've done a really good job of tucking this problem/these people out of sight, and pretending they don't exist. We've done such a good job of it, that we've allowed policy makers, law enforcement, and private/public businesses (think private prisons) to extract rents from these people, the poorest among us. That's on us. The rioting doesn't excuse our indifference/apathy. It certainly doesn't excuse our complicity in the exploitation of the poor and other "marginal" groups.

 

[The Thriller]

Excellent last few posts.

Sadly, I don't think we will see real changes until this wealth inequality hits people like log or stoked. Once white Americans join in then finally the richies at the top and the policy makers (who currently are acting as puppets for the richies) will take notice.

By that time hopefully there's still an America worth saving. The way we are going is scary. We are being turned into a 3rd world ploutocrat society. Just look at Kansas, Wisconsin, and Louisana. And some of these states feature presidential candidates! Scary! Maybe once Scott Walker runs this country into the ground as he has Wisconsin will people like stoked wake up.

 

[BabyPeterzz]

What compromises will honestly be made?

Please, name me 5 realistic changes that will be made?

That's the core problem here. These poor people know that no matter how logical or peaceful they may sound, nothing will change. So why not resort to violence?

Will the state and federal governments finally step in to clear the plight and actually invest in this city? No.

Will the children finally receive the education money they need to get out of poverty? No.

Will families finally receive affordable and comfortable housing conducive to a stable environment? No.

Will businesses that left come back to provide salaries that enable these people to get off welfare and food stamps? No.

So why the hell not burn the bitch down?

I totally understand their frustration and hopelessness.

While we've been rebuilding other countries we have completely neglected our own. Our infrastructure? Is crumbling. Our own schools? Are closing early and filing for bankruptcy (ex Kansas, Wisconsin, Louisana). Salaries for the middle class? Stagnant. Had just min wage kept up with inflation we would see a min wage of $18 bucks per hr. Our health care system is a joke as the #1 cause for individuals filing for bankruptcy in our nation is due to health care costs. Places like Detroit, Cleveland, and Baltimore should have never happened. The wealth inequality that we see currently see today should have never occurred.

While average Americans bitch about blacks burning down Baltimore we turn a blind eye to American capitalists exploiting cheap labor in sweat shop factories in communist countries. Nothing shows patriotism more than throwing people in Baltimore out of work while moving your operations to employ communists in China.

Until we wake up the moral compass of our country and focus on our own nation, nothing will change. In 2 weeks Baltimore will be forgotten again and the neglect will continue. The people in Baltimore certainly are living an endless and hopeless nightmare until we wake up. Until Baltimore residents are joined with Kansas or Wisconsin residents pissed over the failure of tinkle down in their state, nothing will change.

This isn't a race issue. It's an economic issue. The focus needs to shift from enriching a few back to enriching the country.

I agree with a lot of this.

But this is a racial issue. Not completely, but it is part of the equation. There's a reason black people are disproportionately effected by our socio-economic problems, and it's not coincidence.

 

[The Thriller]

I just wanted to point out that the last few days I've watched a lot of fair and balanced news reporting on this Baltimore situation. To summarize: it's all al sharpton and obama's fault for inciting blacks. Blacks are at fault for living off food stamps and not getting education and moving up the economic ladder. And it's black women's fault because they are so sex obsessed and keep having too many kids or put wedlock.

It's interesting that no other media source reports this truth but fair and balanced media. This just adds to their credibility... Amiright?

 

[The Thriller]

I agree with a lot of this.

But this is a racial issue. Not completely, but it is part of the equation. There's a reason black people are disproportionately effected by our socio-economic problems, and it's not coincidence.

You're absolutely correct. Race most definitely figures into this.

What's interesting is if you watch fair and balanced reporting you'll learn that whites have nothing to do with this. It's all on blacks, especially on Sharpton, Obama, and horny black women.

Remember just a month or so ago Meghan Kelly did a segment on how America does NOT have a race problem. Just what planet are Fox News viewers living on?

And then we wonder why these protests turn violent? So many are so eager to bat a blind eye to the plight of so many. Heck, an entire news network is bound and determined to NOT report their plight.

 

[Stoked]

Was that before the **** hit the fan?

What seems fairly obvious is that stoked, log and others agree (to some degree, anyway) that poverty, unequal opportunity and segregation are real problems in America. In spite of this, the conversation here is not about our own culpability and responsibility in addressing this problem, but in how we can excuse our own apathy/indifference. That there have to be riots for us to notice a problem is telling. We've done a really good job of tucking this problem/these people out of sight, and pretending they don't exist. We've done such a good job of it, that we've allowed policy makers, law enforcement, and private/public businesses (think private prisons) to extract rents from these people, the poorest among us. That's on us. The rioting doesn't excuse our indifference/apathy. It certainly doesn't excuse our complicity in the exploitation of the poor and other "marginal" groups.

That answer will vary for everyone. But you already knew that.

I have alluded to the need among white to fix problems as strongly as I have blacks.

If the discussion as gone from what can we improve and change to how asinine these riots may or may not be then that would be a shared blame on all sides of this discussion.

Rioting doesn't excuse are apathy. I agree with you there. But what's happened doesn't excuse the riots and other violent actions.


Correcting this problem, in my opinion, starts on an individual level. Speaking out when you see prejudice or other shameful behavior. Pressing political candidates at the local level on social issues such as police reform, education and homeless programs. Changing what and how children are taught. Exposure to differences at a young age.

Change is growing and the voices, thank God, for change are getting louder and louder. We need to encourage that and help it increase even faster.

Edit: for the record I still think, to our shame, that the critical mass needed to force change is a long way off. People are still more concerned with talking about the results instead of the causes. As shown in this very thread.

 

[Gameface]

I continue to find it hilarious that people feel the need to point out that rioting and looting are bad. Yeah, we all know that.

There wasn't a black persons convention where they decided in their strategic think tank that rioting was the way to go. This didn't go to a vote. There was no agreement to riot.

It is something that sprang up out of a community that is frustrated and disenfranchised. They aren't tearing up "their" city. They don't see it as their city. They don't see this as their system. And it isn't.

Yeah, rioting is bad. Looting is worse.

Let's all climb back up on our high horses and point that out over and over again and use that moral high ground to ignore the real issues here. That way we can all feel superior.

It's gonna be fun.

 

[Stoked]

I continue to find it hilarious that people feel the need to point out that rioting and looting are bad. Yeah, we all know that.

There wasn't a black persons convention where they decided in their strategic think tank that rioting was the way to go. This didn't go to a vote. There was no agreement to riot.

It is something that sprang up out of a community that is frustrated and disenfranchised. They aren't tearing up "their" city. They don't see it as their city. They don't see this as their system. And it isn't.

Yeah, rioting is bad. Looting is worse.

Let's all climb back up on our high horses and point that out over and over again and use that moral high ground to ignore the real issues here. That way we can all feel superior.

It's gonna be fun.

Well when you read justifications (most of it not on here) and excuses for the rioting I t becomes a valid argument point. Call it high horse or what ever you wish.

 

[BabyPeterzz]

I continue to find it hilarious that people feel the need to point out that rioting and looting are bad. Yeah, we all know that.

There wasn't a black persons convention where they decided in their strategic think tank that rioting was the way to go. This didn't go to a vote. There was no agreement to riot.

It is something that sprang up out of a community that is frustrated and disenfranchised. They aren't tearing up "their" city. They don't see it as their city. They don't see this as their system. And it isn't.

Yeah, rioting is bad. Looting is worse.

Let's all climb back up on our high horses and point that out over and over again and use that moral high ground to ignore the real issues here. That way we can all feel superior.

It's gonna be fun.

It keeps us from having to talk about solutions. You know, like Stoked said.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[LogGrad98]

Well when you read justifications (most of it not on here) and excuses for the rioting I t becomes a valid argument point. Call it high horse or what ever you wish.

This.