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Building around Gobert

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karl malone

Well-Known Member
As great as Hayward & Favors are (& Exum could be), it has essentially become a requirement for legitimate championship contenders to have multiple superstars. Hayward & Favors both appear to be secondary/complimentary players (a tier or 2 below elite) rather than actual superstars, & while Exum does look to have that type of potential, it's not only far from a guarantee to happen but from also far from happening (if it does). The closest thing to a superstar/franchise player/generational talent/etc on this roster is Gobert & therefore should be the focal point of the team & determining factor in how the roster is constructed. While Gobert is an elite defensive player, he isn't the traditional type of 2-way superstar who can win a championship singlehandedly, meaning (like all superstars these days) he will likely need another one to team up with (preferably an elite scorer & shooter who isn't a defensive liability).

The question comes down to strategy: do we a) attempt to win a title by putting together a starting 5 consisting entirely of all-star caliber players who compliment each other well yet lack that prototypical superstar like DET did or do we b) make a blockbuster trade in order to acquire that 2nd superstar to pair with Gobert? I know it's not that simple as it is rare that young superstars become available, but we certainly have the high-level assets necessary to make such a trade. As of right now, we appear to have 1 currently elite player (Gobert), a potentially elite talent (Exum), 2 all-star caliber players (Hayward & Favors), 2 potential fringe starters/6th men (Hood & Burks), & several other potential role-players (Burke, Cotton, Millsap, Ingles, & Booker), as well as a late lottery pick & several (likely) late future 1st rd picks.

So do we continue down the current path & hope that we find the caliber of offensive player that we will likely need to become legitimate contenders either in house or via FA/draft/(minor) trade or do we make an aggressive trade by packaging some of our most valuable assets? Despite not being a perfect fit alongside Gobert, Favors is the player (aside from Rudy) that I would be most reluctant to part with due to his steal of a contract. I love Hayward (& Exum's potential) & believe that he embodies what this franchise stands for, but the fact that he can (& almost assuredly will) opt out as the team projects to truly become championship caliber (if it stays it's current course) & will likely require the full max under the new salary cap makes me willing to part with him in the right deal. Obviously finding that right deal is the challenge, but we may have the type of assets to make some team an offer that they can't refuse & convince them to part with a player they otherwise wouldn't be willing to part with. I'm not saying any of the other teams would do it, but if we could somehow acquire a Curry/Harden type of offensive talent, I'd have to consider any package not including Gobert.

Some variation of Hayward/Favors/Exum/Hood/#12 + some of our lesser assets would cause any GM to think long & hard before hanging up, even if it was for an elite talent. For the record, I'm not advocating that we trade everyone except for Gobert & completely restart, just that I see Gobert as a generational defensive talent who, if paired with a generational offensive talent, could win multiple NBA Championships (given the right supporting cast) & that it would be worth taking a step back in the short-term to do so. I'm sure I'll catch some flack for suggesting this & know it's unlikely that any superstars are available, but I think that the presence of Rudy Gobert alone gives us a legitimate opportunity to win a title & that as of right now, we don't project to develop onto a championship caliber team (unless Exum turns into one of the best PG's in the league- which I'm not willing to bet the opportunity to win a title on, as much as I do believe in him & Hood becomes an 18-20 ppg scorer). Just feel that it's something that needs to be considered.
 
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Hell no. We have to go to our strengths. Player development for everyone and evolve as team. And get lucky in the draft. When we uncover a unique talent then we adapt. Jazz can't do the superstar out of the box route. We have to do the Memphis Grizzlie/Atlanta Hawks approach and do it better than they do it. Our team is the superstar.
 
In response to Jazzmania

First off, if I reported your comment, it was by accident.

I actually agree with the concept, but the fact of the matter is that neither MEM or ATL is likely to win a championship with their current rosters (& MEM is actually in danger of having to completely rebuild if Gasol &/or Z-Bo leaves). We are far along enough in our rebuild that, unless we take a risk, we are in serious danger of ending up in the same predicament that we were in with D-Will/Boozer (which is the same predicament that MEM is already in & ATL will likely be in, even despite the season they just had, due to not having "that guy"). It's too late for us to draft KD/Westbrook/Harden/Ibaka like OKC or Curry/Thompson/Green like GSW. We are a small-market team & if we are going to be a legitimate championship contender, we are going to have force our way into the picture (which I don't think we have done just yet).
 
karl malone said:
In response to Jazzmania

First off, if I reported your comment, it was by accident.

I actually agree with the concept, but the fact of the matter is that neither MEM or ATL is likely to win a championship with their current rosters (& MEM is actually in danger of having to completely rebuild if Gasol &/or Z-Bo leaves). We are far along enough in our rebuild that, unless we take a risk, we are in serious danger of ending up in the same predicament that we were in with D-Will/Boozer (which is the same predicament that MEM is already in & ATL will likely be in, even despite the season they just had, due to not having "that guy"). It's too late for us to draft KD/Westbrook/Harden/Ibaka like OKC or Curry/Thompson/Green like GSW. We are a small-market team & if we are going to be a legitimate championship contender, we are going to have force our way into the picture (which I don't think we have done just yet).
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I'm gonna disagree with you and the OP. This team is nothing like the Boozer and Dwill team, and it's not like Memphis or Atlanta either. Our biggest strength which is Gobert, is a more unique and dominating apect to our team than theirs. Marc Gasol, who is the closest thing to Gobert is not even the same thing. Gobert's defense is so great that we can lean on it much like teams do with superstar offensive minded players. Only it might be more valuable. Time will tell.

I'm not so sure we need an offensive superstar. We might be able to win with one of the best defenses ever and turn it into championships. The offense that we get from Hayward and Favors, who are turning into really good player may actually be enough. Top it off with guys like Hood, Exum and Burks, we might actually have enough right now.

So no, I don't think we should sell the farm. Unless that guy was Durant, Davis, or Curry. I certainly wouldn't for someone like Westbrook and Harden, or anything less than that.
 
Also to clarify, I'm not saying that the trade target has to be an established player (as it may not even be an option), but that we need to at least target offensively elite prospects as our team clearly has a deficiency on that side of the ball & that our window to acquire those type of players/prospects is quickly closing. I just don't see our current roster being offensively capable of getting over that championship hump & unless we strike gold (which is possible with DL but still unlikely) ala Manu or Parker in the draft like SAS which gave the team the balance it needed & the sidekicks that Duncan needed to win championships. Don't get me wrong, I love the direction in which we are headed, but with the way the league currently is, I don't see how we win a title without another scorer (besides Hayward) who can put the offense on his back & carry the team to a win (which, while potentially good complimentary scorers, I don't fully trust Hood, Burks, Exum, Favors, etc to ever become), to go along with our championship caliber defense. As talented as Exum is, I would trade him for an equally talented prospect with a better potential offensive profile.
 
In response to Hack

I wasn't suggesting that we blow it up & I agree that our situation is different than the ones I referenced. Our defense does have the potential to be of all-time great caliber & essentially our superstar. I also agree that we have the potential to be a championship caliber team as stands, given that almost everything breaks right, but I'm not willing to bet our championship hopes on that happening. I also believe that playoff basketball differs from regular season basketball, & that when points are harder to come by, it is essential to have a player that can take over. Of the recent NBA champions, Kobe, Duncan, Parker, LBJ, Wade, Leonard, etc, all had the ability to takeover games consistently. While Gobert can clearly do that on the defensive end, we will need someone who can do that offensively & I'm not sure Hayward, Favors, Hood, Burks, Exum, etc, will ever be able to do so consistently at an elite level. I don't want to hit the restart button, just balance out the roster so we are championship caliber on both sides of the ball (like GSW are this year), even if that requires parting with a foundational player if necessary.
 
Just out of curiosity, can you name 5 or 10 current players that meet the criteria that you're looking for? Who would you suggest they go after? That might make it easier to understand and see your thought process.

I'm not talking about Harden or Curry. Who, in your mind, are legit targets that the Jazz should focus on?
 
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karl malone said:
Also to clarify, I'm not saying that the trade target has to be an established player (as it may not even be an option), but that we need to at least target offensively elite prospects as our team clearly has a deficiency on that side of the ball & that our window to acquire those type of players/prospects is quickly closing. I just don't see our current roster being offensively capable of getting over that championship hump & unless we strike gold (which is possible with DL but still unlikely) ala Manu or Parker in the draft like SAS which gave the team the balance it needed & the sidekicks that Duncan needed to win championships. Don't get me wrong, I love the direction in which we are headed, but with the way the league currently is, I don't see how we win a title without another scorer (besides Hayward) who can put the offense on his back & carry the team to a win (which, while potentially good complimentary scorers, I don't fully trust Hood, Burks, Exum, Favors, etc to ever become), to go along with our championship caliber defense. As talented as Exum is, I would trade him for an equally talented prospect with a better potential offensive profile.
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Please..:no more clarifying. Takes me 10 minutes to even read want you want the first time.
 
Here is the sad reality:

It takes luck to win a title. Gobert as a late first rounder was luck. Harden being available was luck. KOC not trading Kanter for Harden was stupid.

Instead of building around Harden, Hayward, Favors and Gobert, we have to hope Exum can rise to Harden's level.

We had opportunities to be a title level team. Time will tell if not trading for Harden was the key to our success.
 
green said:
Here is the sad reality:

It takes luck to win a title. Gobert as a late first rounder was luck. Harden being available was luck. KOC not trading Kanter for Harden was stupid.

Instead of building around Harden, Hayward, Favors and Gobert, we have to hope Exum can rise to Harden's level.

We had opportunities to be a title level team. Time will tell if not trading for Harden was the key to our success.
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Want to talk about luck? How about the T'wolves stumbling into Andrew Wiggins followed by getting the #1 pick the next year.
 
From where we stand now, it's worth going ahead with the draft and seeing if we can come away with Turner or Porzingis. The Jazz then need to hope that both Exum and our newly minted high-upside big become All Star caliber.
 
karl malone said:
As great as Hayward & Favors are (& Exum could be), it has essentially become a requirement for legitimate championship contenders to have multiple superstars. Hayward & Favors both appear to be secondary/complimentary players (a tier or 2 below elite) rather than actual superstars, & while Exum does look to have that type of potential, it's not only far from a guarantee to happen but from also far from happening (if it does). The closest thing to a superstar/franchise player/generational talent/etc on this roster is Gobert & therefore should be the focal point of the team & determining factor in how the roster is constructed. While Gobert is an elite defensive player, he isn't the traditional type of 2-way superstar who can win a championship singlehandedly, meaning (like all superstars these days) he will likely need another one to team up with (preferably an elite scorer & shooter who isn't a defensive liability).

The question comes down to strategy: do we a) attempt to win a title by putting together a starting 5 consisting entirely of all-star caliber players who compliment each other well yet lack that prototypical superstar like DET did or do we b) make a blockbuster trade in order to acquire that 2nd superstar to pair with Gobert? I know it's not that simple as it is rare that young superstars become available, but we certainly have the high-level assets necessary to make such a trade. As of right now, we appear to have 1 currently elite player (Gobert), a potentially elite talent (Exum), 2 all-star caliber players (Hayward & Favors), 2 potential fringe starters/6th men (Hood & Burks), & several other potential role-players (Burke, Cotton, Millsap, Ingles, & Booker), as well as a late lottery pick & several (likely) late future 1st rd picks.

So do we continue down the current path & hope that we find the caliber of offensive player that we will likely need to become legitimate contenders either in house or via FA/draft/(minor) trade or do we make an aggressive trade by packaging some of our most valuable assets? Despite not being a perfect fit alongside Gobert, Favors is the player (aside from Rudy) that I would be most reluctant to part with due to his steal of a contract. I love Hayward (& Exum's potential) & believe that he embodies what this franchise stands for, but the fact that he can (& almost assuredly will) opt out as the team projects to truly become championship caliber (if it stays it's current course) & will likely require the full max under the new salary cap makes me willing to part with him in the right deal. Obviously finding that right deal is the challenge, but we may have the type of assets to make some team an offer that they can't refuse & convince them to part with a player they otherwise wouldn't be willing to part with. I'm not saying any of the other teams would do it, but if we could somehow acquire a Curry/Harden type of offensive talent, I'd have to consider any package not including Gobert.

Some variation of Hayward/Favors/Exum/Hood/#12 + some of our lesser assets would cause any GM to think long & hard before hanging up, even if it was for an elite talent. For the record, I'm not advocating that we trade everyone except for Gobert & completely restart, just that I see Gobert as a generational defensive talent who, if paired with a generational offensive talent, could win multiple NBA Championships (given the right supporting cast) & that it would be worth taking a step back in the short-term to do so. I'm sure I'll catch some flack for suggesting this & know it's unlikely that any superstars are available, but I think that the presence of Rudy Gobert alone gives us a legitimate opportunity to win a title & that as of right now, we don't project to develop onto a championship caliber team (unless Exum turns into one of the best PG's in the league- which I'm not willing to bet the opportunity to win a title on, as much as I do believe in him & Hood becomes an 18-20 ppg scorer). Just feel that it's something that needs to be considered.
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Gobert is a one way player? Gobert don't forget Karl Malone say this.
 
Better fix complementary before colton sees it. He will put you in time out.
 
Harden had to sign an extension which means he had control over where he went and I am pretty damn certain he didn't want to come here.
 
There isn't really a model for what the Jazz are doing right now. The 00's Pistons are probably it.

The Jazz's identity starts with having two bigs that can both guard in space (/switch), protect the rim, and rebound. Their defensive ability as a tandem is almost unheard of and the numbers bear that out. How to build around this is largely a question of Gobert and Favors (continued) growth as offensive players. If they're able to simply hit some mid-range shots with consistency and punish mismatches with size, that will go a very very far way. They will need lots more shooting and offense around them obviously as well (which if things keep shaping up like they have been, they will be pretty set until they have to figure out how to pay everyone).
 
I figured I'd get this kind of response.

To those complaining about length of posts: Don't read them.

As far as it taking luck to win a title: I agree, but it's about giving yourself the best possible chance to get lucky, which I don't feel we are doing by creating an imbalanced roster. In this NBA, you need to be championship caliber on both sides of the ball. It's not enough to win on defense alone.

As far as Gobert being a 1-way player: What I meant was that he is a superstar on 1 side of the ball.

As far as calling Hayward/Favors complimentary players: I didn't mean this as an insult, was just saying that while great players, neither are going to win a championship on their own, & don't think Hayward, Favors, Gobert is a championship tandem without another elite scorer. Maybe Exum or Hood become that guy, but I wouldn't put all of our eggs in that basket.

As far as the draft: I think it's essential that we walk away with one of Russell or Hezonja as it is likely our last opportunity to acquire an elite offensive talent without making a major trade.

As far as some examples: There are 2 directions I'm which we could go- established or prospect. Obviously trading for an established superstar is unlikely, but HOU showed it's possible if the timing is right. Obviously Harden, Curry, etc isn't happening, but there's certain situations that I would keep on eye on. If CLE doesn't win & LBJ/Love leave, maybe they look to trade Irving & completely rebuild. If POR loses LA, maybe they trade Lillard & start over. Maybe one of the RFA guy's team doesn't want to pay that much & decide to do a S&T instead. All unlikely scenarios, but we need to keep an open mind & our ears to the ground so we don't miss out like we did on Harden. The more likely scenario is that we target a potentially elite offensive prospect such as Parker, Russell, Hezonja, etc.

I know these are all unlikely & while we are headed in the right direction, I'm not comfortable assuming that everything breaks right for us far as injuries, player development, etc. We're small market team, & if we're going to be different than other small market team & win a championship, we need an offensive superstar. SAS won theirs by landing Duncan (2-way superstar) & getting lucky with Parker & Manu. GSW has a chance to win one because they have an offensive generational talent & another offensive superstar to pair with an elite defender. Other than DET, who had a starting 5 entirely of all-stars who complimented each other perfectly & had a great balance of offense/defense (none of which we currently have), the past NBA Champions have all been big market teams with generational talents. We have a defensive generational talent, 2all-star caliber 2-way players, a high risk/high reward PG prospect, a potential starter, & a 6th man. If everything goes right, we have a chance to duplicate SET's championship run. If it doesn't, we are in the worst spot you can be (too good to draft a superstar, not good enough to win a championship, & too small market to sign a superstar). I just think Rudy Gobert combined with a top 10 scorer, along with a decent supporting cast, equals championship. We started the rebuild around Hayward, Favors, Kanter, & Burks, but then Gobert came out of nowhere & altered our rebuild. I feel we need to adapt, adjust, & build around Rudy.
 
Some people are so impatient. We are just learning what our team can do with a good coach and which players fit and which players don't. Last year, we learned Enes didn't fit and that Rudy and Rodney did. Now we need to see if Burks's return strengthens the team or weakens it. We need to see how high Exum can climb on his learning curve given a summer to work on his game. We need to know how best to play Hood, Hayward, and Burks together. We need to seriously upgrade our bench from d-leaguers, whether through FAs or the draft. Ingles may be a good player to have on the bench, but I'd rather we didn't need him to play in our normal rotation.
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We shouldn't trade any of our players until we clearly know our weaknesses. Yes, our outside shooting is a huge weakness, but did Hood fix this problem or not? It's hard to say since he didn't begin to shine until late in the season. And if Hood doesn't solve our 3-point woes, then how do we shore it up without sacrificing the defensive strides we made last year? Personally, I would like to see us in a few post-season games before deciding which players need replacing.
 
I agree that the DET model is what we're trying to replicate, I just don't think we will be able to. Of all the teams that have attempted to do so, only DET has won (& that was before superstars began teaming up). I just think you need a player who is elite on both sides of the ball (which we don't have) or 2 players that are elite on each side of the ball (which we currently have 1 of) to win a title in this NBA. If we keep this core together & we win a title, I'll admit I was wrong. I just see us coming up short as it stands & think we have a unique opportunity due to Gobert all-time great defensive potential & that we could win a title if we are able to pair him with the right offensive player & don't want to settle for WCF appearances.
 
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