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Building around Gobert

karl malone said:
I figured I'd get this kind of response.

To those complaining about length of posts: Don't read them.

As far as it taking luck to win a title: I agree, but it's about giving yourself the best possible chance to get lucky, which I don't feel we are doing by creating an imbalanced roster. In this NBA, you need to be championship caliber on both sides of the ball. It's not enough to win on defense alone.

As far as Gobert being a 1-way player: What I meant was that he is a superstar on 1 side of the ball.

As far as calling Hayward/Favors complimentary players: I didn't mean this as an insult, was just saying that while great players, neither are going to win a championship on their own, & don't think Hayward, Favors, Gobert is a championship tandem without another elite scorer. Maybe Exum or Hood become that guy, but I wouldn't put all of our eggs in that basket.

As far as the draft: I think it's essential that we walk away with one of Russell or Hezonja as it is likely our last opportunity to acquire an elite offensive talent without making a major trade.

As far as some examples: There are 2 directions I'm which we could go- established or prospect. Obviously trading for an established superstar is unlikely, but HOU showed it's possible if the timing is right. Obviously Harden, Curry, etc isn't happening, but there's certain situations that I would keep on eye on. If CLE doesn't win & LBJ/Love leave, maybe they look to trade Irving & completely rebuild. If POR loses LA, maybe they trade Lillard & start over. Maybe one of the RFA guy's team doesn't want to pay that much & decide to do a S&T instead. All unlikely scenarios, but we need to keep an open mind & our ears to the ground so we don't miss out like we did on Harden. The more likely scenario is that we target a potentially elite offensive prospect such as Parker, Russell, Hezonja, etc.

I know these are all unlikely & while we are headed in the right direction, I'm not comfortable assuming that everything breaks right for us far as injuries, player development, etc. We're small market team, & if we're going to be different than other small market team & win a championship, we need an offensive superstar. SAS won theirs by landing Duncan (2-way superstar) & getting lucky with Parker & Manu. GSW has a chance to win one because they have an offensive generational talent & another offensive superstar to pair with an elite defender. Other than DET, who had a starting 5 entirely of all-stars who complimented each other perfectly & had a great balance of offense/defense (none of which we currently have), the past NBA Champions have all been big market teams with generational talents. We have a defensive generational talent, 2all-star caliber 2-way players, a high risk/high reward PG prospect, a potential starter, & a 6th man. If everything goes right, we have a chance to duplicate SET's championship run. If it doesn't, we are in the worst spot you can be (too good to draft a superstar, not good enough to win a championship, & too small market to sign a superstar). I just think Rudy Gobert combined with a top 10 scorer, along with a decent supporting cast, equals championship. We started the rebuild around Hayward, Favors, Kanter, & Burks, but then Gobert came out of nowhere & altered our rebuild. I feel we need to adapt, adjust, & build around Rudy.
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Who do u want to trade for Russell. The third pick is going to cost a lot. Not willing to trade favors or Hayward for Russ who isn't an upgrade by the way. Russ is a talent no doubt but if u want to trade either player for him u r understating Hayward and Favors.
Ellipse said:
Some people are so impatient. We are just learning what our team can do with a good coach and which players fit and which players don't. Last year, we learned Enes didn't fit and that Rudy and Rodney did. Now we need to see if Burks's return strengthens the team or weakens it. We need to see how high Exum can climb on his learning curve given a summer to work on his game. We need to know how best to play Hood, Hayward, and Burks together. We need to seriously upgrade our bench from d-leaguers, whether through FAs or the draft. Ingles may be a good player to have on the bench, but I'd rather we didn't need him to play in our normal rotation.
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We shouldn't trade any of our players until we clearly know our weaknesses. Yes, our outside shooting is a huge weakness, but did Hood fix this problem or not? It's hard to say since he didn't begin to shine until late in the season. And if Hood doesn't solve our 3-point woes, then how do we shore it up without sacrificing the defensive strides we made last year? Personally, I would like to see us in a few post-season games before deciding which players need replacing.
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U do realize Ingles was shooting over 40% from three after the break and was getting 10 points off the bench and our best playmaker off the bench right and u know he didn't hurt us at all defensively right? He belongs in any championship contending team. Meat part about Ingles is his iq and plays hard every game
 
Thee jazz fan said:
U do realize Ingles was shooting over 40% from three after the break and was getting 10 points off the bench and our best playmaker off the bench right and u know he didn't hurt us at all defensively right? He belongs in any championship contending team. Meat part about Ingles is his iq and plays hard every game
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Yes, Ingles was a solid performer for our team last year, which is why I want him on our team next year. But we will not be a championship contender if he is our best playmaker off the bench.
 
NUMBERICA said:
Harden had to sign an extension which means he had control over where he went and I am pretty damn certain he didn't want to come here.
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I'm also pretty certain that he would have signed Utah's 5 year max as easily as he signed Houston's. Getting him (and his Bird Rights) before RFA would have been a boon.

I would have put the best offer on the table and then dealt with the contract issues later. Just like any rookie, he would have taken the best offer for the Jazz as easily as any other team. Only pending unrestricted free agents have that kind of leverage. It's a business. Somwtimes teams need to make business decisions and sort out the feelings later.
 
Ellipse said:
Yes, Ingles was a solid performer for our team last year, which is why I want him on our team next year. But we will not be a championship contender if he is our best playmaker off the bench.
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I agree. I will, however, point out a key thing about Ingles (and Booker to a lesser degree.) DL and Snyder are both disciples of the "Spurs" model of business. Atlanta has tried to replicate this as well, and have been fairly successful at it.

Draft and develop - Spurs drafted Duncan, Parker, Ginobili, Leonard and Splitter. Over the past decade, they've been the best developmental team in the league. But aside from their own key guys (who they've somehow managed to retain), who else makes up the bulk of their roster? Not big-time, expensive free agents.

. . . nope. It's castoffs and International players. Tiago Splitter (who was drafted late 1st round, but didn't come over for a few years), Patty Mills (who left Portland as a RFA), Marco Belinelli (5th team in 6 years), Boris Diaw (traded twice and waived by Charlotte) and Danny Green (waived by Cleveland and San Antonio and spent time in the D-league before breaking out.)

These guys were not star acquisitions. They were guys that the Spurs identified as having the traits they looked for. They were given specific roles to fill AND then coached up and developed. Every single one of them played better in San Antonio than they did in any of their previous stops. The Hawks followed a similar path by keeping Horford (despite his injury concerns) and Teague. Then they focused on adding bargain free agents around them. Kyle Korver (who they had and kept), Paul Millsap (bargain), DeMarre Carroll (huge bargain) and Kent Bazemore (nice cheap value) all played above their contracts.

This is the model I expect the Jazz to follow. Jingles was a guy Quin wanted and he played well in his first year. He has a role on this team and should be here for awhile. I'll be shocked if the Jazz don't extend him or match any contract offers he gets. Guys like Tomic, Jingles, Millsap, Booker and Cotton are exactly the types of players that San Antonio and Atlanta have been chasing.
 
NUMBERICA said:
Harden had to sign an extension which means he had control over where he went and I am pretty damn certain he didn't want to come here.
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Harden was a restricted FA. So, he could risk 80 million or sign an extension. Odds are, he had no say in where he ended up. Think about this:

If we had Harden, do we make the WCF this year? Probably.

PG: some vet
SG: Harden
SF: Hayward
PF: Favors
C: Gobert

That starting lineup is insane. Let's compare to GS:

Steph = Harden
Hayward = Thompson. Maybe Thompson is better, but not by much.
Vet PG = Barnes. Wash. Two solid role players
Bogut = Gobert.
Favors = Green. Some would argue Green is better. I'd argue that Favors would be better than Green if Favors was playing with Harden.

We'd still have Burks (though not this year) and maybe Hood. If we had traded for Harden, we might be winning a title right now.

And you know what? If Harden decided he hated Utah, signed the extension then tried to force his way out, I'd be ok with that, because I'm sure Harden would have a much better return than Kanter had.

Not trading Kanter for Harden was easily the biggest mistake in Utah history. Easily.
 
Ellis269 said:
I'm also pretty certain that he would have signed Utah's 5 year max as easily as he signed Houston's. Getting him (and his Bird Rights) before RFA would have been a boon.

I would have put the best offer on the table and then dealt with the contract issues later. Just like any rookie, he would have taken the best offer for the Jazz as easily as any other team. Only pending unrestricted free agents have that kind of leverage. It's a business. Somwtimes teams need to make business decisions and sort out the feelings later.
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You would've traded for Harden without him signing an extension...?
 
green said:
Not trading Kanter for Harden was easily the biggest mistake in Utah history. Easily.
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What the **** are you talking about? Did some substantiated info about this leak or are you just screaming out of your *** like you usually are?
 
NUMBERICA said:
You would've traded for Harden without him signing an extension...?
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If I had to. I doubt he plays hard ball and refuses to sign the 5 year max on the table. And let's say he does. . . then before he goes the RFA route, I again put the 5 year max on the table. If he's stupid about it and decided to take a RFA offer sheet from somewhere else. . . I match that.

In that circumstance, I firmly believe he would have signed a max for Utah at some point before hitting RFA. And if he hadn't, I'd have just matched whatever offer he did get and retained his Bird rights. If you can get the rights to a potential star before RFA, you absolutely do it.

As a one year rental before UFA? Probably not so much. It hasn't worked out too well for the Lakers (Howard) or Cavs (Love), but I can see why both teams chased them. Had they not had major issues with star player personalities and team chemistry, I think both would have stayed. Kevin Love still might.
 
Ellis269 said:
If I had to. I doubt he plays hard ball and refuses to sign the 5 year max on the table. And let's say he does. . . then before he goes the RFA route, I again put the 5 year max on the table. If he's stupid about it and decided to take a RFA offer sheet from somewhere else. . . I match that.

In that circumstance, I firmly believe he would have signed a max for Utah at some point before hitting RFA. And if he hadn't, I'd have just matched whatever offer he did get and retained his Bird rights. If you can get the rights to a potential star before RFA, you absolutely do it.

As a one year rental before UFA? Probably not so much. It hasn't worked out too well for the Lakers (Howard) or Cavs (Love), but I can see why both teams chased them. Had they not had major issues with star player personalities and team chemistry, I think both would have stayed. Kevin Love still might.
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There is no indication that Love is leaving. I would bet good money he resigns with Cavs.
 
Ellis269 said:
Only for the money and his "legacy". And for how long? I'm not sure that he's there long term.
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So if they win a championship with him on the team, does it still count as something that "hasn't worked out well"? :)
 
Siro said:
So if they win a championship with him on the team, does it still count as something that "hasn't worked out well"? :)
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Considering how this season has played out. . . he'll have a ring, but a lot of people will mentally put an * next to it. He was injured or ineffective for a lot of the season and out during most of the post season. If he comes back and has a better year next season, he likely stays. I think the money becomes too good after that to leave.
 
Ellis269 said:
Considering how this season has played out. . . he'll have a ring, but a lot of people will mentally put an * next to it. He was injured or ineffective for a lot of the season and out during most of the post season. If he comes back and has a better year next season, he likely stays. I think the money becomes too good after that to leave.
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I'm talking about next year. Cavs aren't winning anything this year. But with Irving and Love healthy, they have a good shot at winning the title. I think Love's trade was a very good idea. Just like Shaq going to the Heat was a good idea. Ring >> everything else.
 
I'm not a Kevin Love fan. I would have kept Wiggins and tried to jump start his development. Liked the moves for Mozgov, Smith and Shumpert. Probably would have tried to flip Bennett for Kanter tbh. Trading for Love was a huge risk because of his injury history. I'd have been dancing circles that I had LeBron back AND my franchise player of the future.

Mozgov, Thompson, Kanter, LeBron, Smith, Shumpert, Wiggins, Irving and Dellavedova is a solid team to work with. Plus, with or without LeBron, Blatt was a strange choice to coach them.
 
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