Bundys Go Free

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Stoked, Jan 8, 2018.

  1. franklin

    franklin Well-Known Member

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    You're on the fence about an armed man, who was a leader of a terrorist organization illegally occupying a federal building, and who claimed in an interview when asked if he would rather be arrested or killed in a standoff that "I have no intention of spending any of my days in a concrete box."? A guy who reached for a gun in his pocket, after a high speed chase with police, and came out daring them to shoot him and then reached for his gun?

    What fence is there to sit on here?
     
  2. rare144

    rare144 Well-Known Member

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    Who fired first? Who didn't come out firing? Who didn't kill or hurt anyone? If I were that mercenary I'd like the rest of my life in guilt.
     
  3. Bulletproof

    Bulletproof All-Jazzfanz First Team! Contributor 2018 Award Winner

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    I'm laughing at the suggestion that the police tranquilize him.

    The police kill people that don't need to be killed frequently. I watched the video one time, it seemed like a difficult call. Context matters, like being an armed militia taking over a gov't building in a wilderness area, running a roadblock, attempting to dart off into the woods... Could the police have NOT shot him? Yeah, probably. But was there a legit concern he was armed, had a death wish and possibly wanted to take some cops with him? Yes. He could have prevented his own death by making a different decision over a half-dozen times leading up to his shooting.

    I love constantly being told to "read up on it" on these ****ing issues. One, I have limited interest or concern in his death. Two, I'm not going to spend my days reading up on things on conspiracy peddling websites and fact checking every frivolous claim they make. I've got way better things to do with my spare time.
     
  4. Archie Moses

    Archie Moses Well-Known Member

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    Yep. I know it sounds really sketchy when you put it like that, but in context of what was going on, what they were fighting for and how he was baited, I feel completely fine being on the fence about it.
     
  5. Archie Moses

    Archie Moses Well-Known Member

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    I, personally, enjoy reading up on social matters and making assessments from the facts I'm able to gather. It doesn't mean that the information read is skewed or a conspiracy. I absolutely understand why people do not care to do the same. With that said, if you're going to laugh at a claim of someone being murdered, I'd hope you'd at least listen to those claims and their backing. I'm sure you wouldn't write "lol" if someone was posting Philando Castile was murdered.

    Just my two-cents.
     
  6. Archie Moses

    Archie Moses Well-Known Member

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    I can't argue anything here. Good post.
     
  7. babe

    babe Well-Known Member

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    Enough fact here I could conclude you're shooting straight. I mean, I know about the Bundyville reunions, not that I get invited. No relation at all on my family tree.

    The Arizona Strip bunch used to come to town to tear the roller rink apart. I had to take them on, one vs. about six or eight. Good thing they minded before actually doing anything. They just pushed my limits to see what gives. I couldn't make the case they were anything but fun loving rowdies.
     
  8. The Thriller

    The Thriller Well-Known Member

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    I have no doubt that this isn't over yet and we the people will get our tax dollars out of Bundy's carcass someday. The prosecution was sloppy with this case. But the litigation is far from over. The welfare rancher Bundy clan still owes me millions of dollars in using my land for free.

    Right wing terrorism is clearly the nation's #1 threat. It's what lead to Russian collusion and it's what's choking off our democracy and leading to oligarchic fascism.

    Btw, when will the LDS church publicly excommunicate Bundy? Or is waging a war on the federal government and praising the enslavement of blacks not deplorable enough to be excommunicated? Thank god he wasn't gay or thought women should have the priesthood!
     
  9. babe

    babe Well-Known Member

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    just love the socialist possessive 'my land'. Probably about ten civilizations of socialists ahead of you, bud. They all called it "my land" as they killed off the last remnants of the prior "oligarchical fascists" who somehow refused to clear out right timely.

    Jefferson's Blunder......

    how is agonized over that Louisiana Purchase. France wanted the money to recover from Jacobin reign of terror, maybe restore some stability to their nation. Anyway, it was cheap. The problem is, and Jefferson realized it, it would be a departure from the Constitutional concept of limited guv, and the only way Americans would buy it is if we opened it up to settlement...... meaning driving back the natives yet again.....

    Congress failed to provide for an orderly settlement procedure, failed to recognize grazing property rights, failed to recognize any native human rights either hunting fishing or grazing. Fed ownership of land has always been bad business, mismanagement.

    time to actually let people settle on the land and gain title. We've got some areas that really should be developed.
     
  10. babe

    babe Well-Known Member

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    thriller still in the collusion delusion, talking about the big nuthinburger as some kind of settled truth. yep. and he's not talking about the speaking deals BC got, or the Russian "help" on the dossier, or all the money that was on the move for the U deal or the criminal abuse of the fake dossier to truly meddle in the American electoral process, getting the intel agencies involved in undermining American voters.

    when dems whine and point fingers, it about projecting their crimes on the innocent.
     
  11. babe

    babe Well-Known Member

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    Well, people will think what they will, I'm sure. I agree with you on this.

    I've gone over all the available video and accounts. I dunno, maybe there's some that haven't been released, or are under some court gag rule, so how would I know, really. That stop was pretty much a separate case from the Bundy ranch.

    One of my brothers got on talk radio and argued with finnicum before the protest, and tried to talk him outta getting himself shot. Lots of people would rather do their fight in the courts than with guns outside on the land. Bundys have a long way to go to make their case on the grazing fees. But it is a case that will keep on keepin on for a hundred years.

    I've believed grazing on fed lands would be systematically choked off, and then any public access choked off as well. It is the dream of some to return as much of planet earth to wilderness as possible..... and the thinking doesn't really have a goal except getting people run off. It is not "socialism" driving it, but "fascism"..... corporate cartelism/monopoly interests capable of managing government for their own interests.

    people who want to work for the government should be screened for psychological tendencies. Those with a tendency to see people as having no relevance, no rights, or bad ideas ought to be sent back to something in the private sector.
     
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  12. Dr. Jones

    Dr. Jones In pursuit of #9 Contributor

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    I know 100x more about this than any journalist.

    It’s a tale of two entirely different issues.

    1) Cliven was wrong and was too stupid to listen to sound advice as to how to handle what was happening to him (just didn’t/wouldn’t get it).

    2) completely corrupt politician and cronies that should be in jail.
     
  13. Archie Moses

    Archie Moses Well-Known Member

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    Probably one of the top 10 douchiest commemts ever made on JFz.
     
  14. The Thriller

    The Thriller Well-Known Member

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    Let’s make something perfectly clear:

    The bundys are the complete scum of the earth. They’re ****roaches. If they were brown and had beards, they’d already be dead. For decades they illegally trespassed on Federal land. They refused to pay taxes (fees). Think you could go decades without paying your taxes? When finally the hammer of justice came, they didn’t pay the price. They, like the coward terrorists that they are, called other terrorist groups like “the oath keepers”, “three percenters”, and “patriots” to create a standoff. These terrorist groups are known for white supremacy, killing innocent cnent people along the southern border, and violent standoffs (ruby ridge).

    During the standoff, terrorists pointed guns at federal agents and threatened to put women and children to act as human shields (quote by Richard Mack, one of their leaders and former renegade Mormon Arizona sheriff).

    Bundy was enjoying his 15 seconds of fame until his completely racist comments about how blacks were better off as slaves scared off a significant part of the media.

    During the standoff you had terrorists from these groups bragging about how they were gonna make this another Waco or Ruby Ridge. They pointed their weapons at officers (felony), some had illegal weapons (felony), and many gave speeches about standing up to a “half breed” of president (Obama).

    I-15 was shut down for a time while these protesters disrupted life and threatened officers with violence.

    Once the standoff began to wind down, disappointed that it hadn’t erupted in another Waco, one of the terrorists, Jerad Miller and his wife took off to get some pizza in Las Vegas. They left behind an anti-government manifesto that sounded exactly like something Bundy would’ve written, opened up fire and killed several people (including a cop) in the restaurant. In fact, they placed a Nazi flag over his dead body.

    So congrats Bundys! Definitely making your mark on America.

    We haven’t even discussed their standoff in Oregon, where they defended two members of a family who purposely set fire to their property in order to provoke a response from the BLM. During that standoff, the Bundys dug trenches and bulldozed the Refuge’s buildings where sensitive Native American artifacts were kept. The trench they dug and used covered priceless artifacts with their feces.

    Thanks!

    At least this time we got tarp boy before he could hurt anyone else. Blue lives matter. Officers deserve to come home safely and not be harmed by lawless white thugs in pickups and goofy hats. Hate your life? Get an education. Do something to improve your lot rather than bitch about the government.

    The Bundys aren’t people we should be cheerleading. They are terrorists, it’s that simple. They should be in prison at the least and buried (like tarp boy) at the most. They are a profound danger to our society in that white supremacy and anti-government groups most certainly are our nation’s greatest terrorist threat. Domestic terrorist Groups, like the Bundys, Patriots, Oath Keepers, Three Percenters, are far more dangerous than Al Qaeda. The way they threaten law enforcement, spread anti-government propaganda and paranoia and racism, and ultimately hurt American democracy is truly deplorable.
     
    Last edited: Jan 17, 2018
  15. franklin

    franklin Well-Known Member

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    Wow, Thriller finally made a decent post. Glad I didn't log in before reading the site or I wouldn't have seen it.
     
  16. babe

    babe Well-Known Member

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    sure guvmint employees, both of you. I think a guvmint that pays morons is a bad guvmint.

    So the Fed government has broken faith with states like Utah, Arizona and Nevada because it was essentially a cardinal principle that federal lands would be open to private use and ownership.

    Congress in the 1800s played to the interests of settlers..... farmers.... and really gave ranchers the short shrift by not recognizing private grazing rights. Caused range wars, Americans killing Americans, the stuff of movies like "Shane".

    Congress passed the Homestead Act, and a lot of states, even states with marginal water resources went almost entirely into private hands. But John Wesley Powell, one of the worst characters in US history, a virulent anti-Mormon and one of the first "progressives", born and raised by a Methodist minister near Palmyra New York, didn't think the Homestead Act should be honored. It's still the law of the land.

    Bundy's range is in Shoshone territory governed by a treaty with the Shoshone nation, as most of Nevada is. Paiutes are a southern Shoshone branch of American natives, distinct from Hopi and Navajo. The US guvmint has never done right by the Shoshone, any more than the grazing range cattlemen. The land was in Utah territory, then Arizona, then Nevada across less than fifty years from the 1860s when the Bundy's started grazing there into the 1910s when it finally went into Nevada state hands as it was shaved off of Arizona territory when Arizona was made a state. The recorded grazing property right makes the case for the Bundy's. It has to be administered by Clark County NV, that is the only legal administrative unit with any jurisdiction over the tract. And until Clark County buys the grazing right, the only fees they can legally assess are those directly attributable to the maintenance of the tract. If they do some work , like improve some water resource, or put a fence up, sure send a bill. The Bundys don't claim to own the land itself, or the minerals on or under the land, just the grazing use.

    The grazing property right was recorded under the administration of three territories as a taxable property interest. The US Constitution denies that the Federal government can take private property interests from citizens without paying a fair price for them.

    modern communists/self-styled "progressives" don't believe in personal or private property. Dems don't think your business is yours, or your money or income. They believe they the smartass knowitalls of superior rank who are the true "enlightened" elites, who should have everything at their disposal.

    That's why Harry Reid and his son Cory.... damned Mormons if there ever will be such cretins properly labeled.... thought their deal with the Chinese solar company that wanted to carpet the turtle heaven with solar panels, believed they could just get their handy honcho thugs at the BLM and FBI to run the Bundys off. Reids Harry and Cory should go to jail for life for abuse of guvmint authority and threatening citizens with bodily harm while attempting to convert private property to their own financial gain.

    Utah had lands shaved off of its territory by several acts of Congress. The first rancher to graze my land recorded a deed to the grazing in relevant Utah recorders office. It is the same fact with a whole lot of old grazing rights that existed prior to the Taylor grazing act.

    But I feel damn sorry for the native Americans. The US guv has violated every treaty they ever made with the native Americans, and it's gonna be a helluva social justice fight to ever get such "inconvenient" property rights recognized.

    Frank, the Federal guvmint has no authority over local land use issues. Utah State does have such authority, as do cities and counties. You should not be defending Federal usurpation. The mining, grazing and Homestead Acts should be, properly, things that States administer.

    We got a whole crapload of States who got theirs first who want to run Utah too.
     
    Last edited: Jan 17, 2018
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  17. Archie Moses

    Archie Moses Well-Known Member

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    Because some people like to skew reality to conform with their agenda/bias. #fakenews
     
  18. Archie Moses

    Archie Moses Well-Known Member

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    A good post while he skews reality, wishes death on people and makes LaVoy Finicum, who was outright murder look like he was Osama Bin Ladin and worse than ****ing Al Qaeda? Dude...
     
    Last edited: Jan 17, 2018
  19. franklin

    franklin Well-Known Member

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    Fair enough, even with all your various inaccuracies. Show me the the Secretary of the Interior's signature on a license under the Stock-Raising Homestead Act and I could buy into Bundy's case.

    You are referring to The Enabling Act, which came years before the Stock-Raising Homestead Act and the Utah Constitution.

    You're talking in circles.

    1. You feel bad for the Natives, they own the land.
    2. But a state owns all the land within their boundaries (even though they agreed they didn't when they were permitted part of a union that controlled that territory in the first place, a territory they most likely migrated from).
    3. Bundy's should be allowed to graze illegally without paying the feds or the state or dealing with Shoshone.
    4. The Federation allowed that conquered land to become a state, with stipulations, but those stipulations don't matter, and by your implication, should be returned back to the natives in a revolving game of musical chairs based on whatever research comes up proving the oldest lineage. But states rights are still somehow magically in place.
    4. Unsaid: There was a war with Mexico that took control of these lands.

    So who owns the land? The people who can prove today that their ancestors occupied it first? Okey dokey. Let's go on and readjust every single boundary line like we are Europe in the 900-1800 era, or like Jerusalem today. Sounds like lots of fun. Or, we can get over it.

    BTW, it wasn't Homestead Act; there were several homestead acts and the one you should be pointing to was the Stock -Raising Homestead Act of 1916, which was plenty of years past the accepted Utah Constitution that set those lands aside. Also, despite Bundy's claims, they didn't start raising cattle there until something like 1948 or so. Plus, I haven't seen a legal permit or application from the Department of the Interior for their homestead claim (which it might not be one anyway as they don't live there as their primary residence).

    Show me that issuance and explain how probate law allows multi-generational transfer and then you can make a legal case as far as I'm concerned.
     
  20. babe

    babe Well-Known Member

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    yah, I insinuated you're something of a moron, so do you really have to prove it.

    to participate in a discussion intelligently, where there is another point of view, the highest objective should be to state the case accurately before you begin to prattle on and on about it.

    My position amounts to, in it's simplest form, the assertion that our Fed gov had no history of doing anybody any justice. That premise runs through the American Revolutionary War where the Brits got a lot of native American tribes to help them, presenting the difficulties for the rebels of fighting on all kinds of "fronts", besides the best organized military and navy on planet earth. The understandable, but unfortunate result was pretty severe mistreatment of the natives afterwards. Abe Lincoln fought in the Blackhawk War, and plainly stated his belief that the native Americans should be exterminated. So much for Abe being any kind of humanitarian.

    I could go on about the Cherokees and Andrew Jackson, and Kit Carson and the Navajo trail of tears, or General Miles and Chief Joseph of the Nez Perce. Or the plains Indians and the great Buffalo extermination that put them into starvation.

    Do you really want to believe that such Federal meddling against humanity is the side you want to stand for.

    I consider the dems today to be pretty racist, attempting continually to exploit political division of human beings. The objective of many UN-type dreamers is to run humans off the land to such a large extent they can achieve a "sustainable" population reduction of rather significant proportions. Their reason for wanting to bring third worlders into advanced nations is so they can get the runaway population under modern forms of controls.

    So where we made treaties, and there are remnants of the treaty peoples, there needs to be some campaign to bring the Fed gov into compliance. Most natives would not run off ranchers.... a lot of ranchers are natives. I think Bundy was on to something in believing blacks should have such opportunities. Grazing property rights on treaty lands would be a stable tax base for the tribes. And the lands would be better managed, I'd say.

    The Federal Government has no constitutional authority to administer lands except small tracts purchased from the States or private parties, a minimal allowance that should never make such a nuisance of the Fed authorities. The Fed has reneged on its promises made with the State of Utah in the Statehood enabling act to turn over ownership in the customary manner it did with many other states, enabling humans to own land and improve it.

    The Fed gov did great injustice to native Americans with the reservation system, and with the BIA administering the reservations in a manner that practically made slaves of the natives, who were denied citizenship rights for decades while being treated like cattle.

    Now the Fed gov under the dem sort of management.....hell, under RINO management as well.... will in effect reduce the entire population to an "Urban Corral" sort of existence. We will all be treated like cattle.

    It takes a lot of arrogance to even begin to make the argument the Federal Government is ever going manage things right.
     
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