Can We Please Just Waive NWG?

[Handlogten's Heros]

If he's super gettable, than every team has passed on him. If he's not, than he's looking for something PT, money, location ect that we may or not provide. One more time...If you're saying this is Jazz specific incompetence that's preventing them from making a move like this, I really don't see it. If the Jazz could get him, then the rest of the league can also get him and are choosing not to.

So all this fluff about the Jazz being conservative or being in love with NWG as the reasons why he isn't signed....big nothing burger to me. There's something about Shaq that is preventing all teams from signing him. Not just UTA.

I also thing it's false that the Jazz cast a narrow net. In fact, they are well known for casting a wide net and holding their own minicamps for FAs and work out more players for the draft than just about anyone. This is how they found Royce, Ingles, ect. Casting a wide net. I would agree that they are focused on their own guys at this point. But that is part of the process. To find guys, you have to believe in them. Sometimes you get Royce, sometimes Niang, and sometimes NWG. The belief/concern calculation isn't that different for NWG and Ingles. The reasons why you would like or dislike NWG as an unproven player are about the same as an unproven Ingles. That not my read on things, but it's also not without reason.

Royce played at Baylor... Joe was a great find. He locks in on guys a lot in the draft. Its almost comical. He targets guys like Mike and won't deviate if the price is too high. This offseason a couple teams got the drop on us by flipping stuff we sent for something more than we got. There were circumstances but he either can't think on the fly or just didn't poke around enough. He was locked into his guys that he knew would be there so it likely doesn't matter. He drafts guys from Duke, Kansas, UNC... ain't like he's finding guys every year and developing them like Miami. I don't know that we've had one second round pick that has panned out since he took over... In the Jokic draft we had a second we sold because there weren't other guys that DL liked... that doesn't strike me as a wide net. DL is slowly reactive rather than actively looking to improve the team. He's a C+ GM that gets the credit of a 4.0 student.

As it relates to shaq he's gettable but that doesn't mean he can be had for a minimum deal. He might have minimum deals on the table in various locations that aren't ideal and eventually settles... but if some team came in with a 3 year 9M offer (we can do it through a sign and trade its quite easy). It might be the winning offer... that's what I mean by super gettable. Its fine though we can just let a glamour market scoop him up for a minimum deal.

The league as a whole misses on guys a lot for various reasons... and it isn't just Shaq. There are 10-15 guys much more deserving of a roster spot than NWG and its getting late... so hopefully DL hasn't closed up shop... but we know he likes to do his business early.

 

[infection]

If he's super gettable, than every team has passed on him. If he's not, than he's looking for something PT, money, location ect that we may or not provide. One more time...If you're saying this is Jazz specific incompetence that's preventing them from making a move like this, I really don't see it. If the Jazz could get him, then the rest of the league can also get him and are choosing not to.

So all this fluff about the Jazz being conservative or being in love with NWG as the reasons why he isn't signed....big nothing burger to me. There's something about Shaq that is preventing all teams from signing him. Not just UTA.

I also thing it's false that the Jazz cast a narrow net. In fact, they are well known for casting a wide net and holding their own minicamps for FAs and work out more players for the draft than just about anyone. This is how they found Royce, Ingles, ect. Casting a wide net. I would agree that they are focused on their own guys at this point. But that is part of the process. To find guys, you have to believe in them. Sometimes you get Royce, sometimes Niang, and sometimes NWG. The belief/concern calculation isn't that different for NWG and Ingles. The reasons why you would like or dislike NWG as an unproven player are about the same as an unproven Ingles. That not my read on things, but it's also not without reason.

I think the biggest flaw in rationalizing this through the lens of why 30 teams have passed on him is to carry that logic forward and look at the other side of the coin and ask ourselves why we have so many guys on our roster that 29 other teams have passed on, and would pass on again, and ask ourselves how many guys would be out of the league if we waived them now.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

9% of the league just tested positive for the Rona... so yeah your 14th man can quickly become a rotation piece this year. When your 8th and 9th men are Niang and Oni I think its fair to invest in something for that 14th spot... when you also have 3 guys who are basically straight 5s and one more that should be a 5 (morgan) I think its fair to say wing depth is something we should look at. If you are really concerned about pg depth there are proven options out there...

But sure... NWG is the best use of the 14th roster spot. And our GM(s) are super smart for keeping him around.

 

[KqWIN]

I think the biggest flaw in rationalizing this through the lens of why 30 teams have passed on him is to carry that logic forward and look at the other side of the coin and ask ourselves why we have so many guys on our roster that 29 other teams have passed on, and would pass on again, and ask ourselves how many guys would be out of the league if we waived them now.

Every team has guys like that. Go across the league and count how many guys you'd rather have Shaq or any other unsigned player. My point is, if you think its something Jazz specific why Shaq isn't signed, ask yourself why no one else has either. You may still think it's crazy not to sign him, but saying we're not signing him because of something that's specific to our incompetence does not add up. It can't be Jazz specific if no one else has signed him or any other unsigned FA. That doesn't come from rational thought, that comes from wanting to whine about your own team.

 

[infection]

Every team has guys like that. Go across the league and count how many guys you'd rather have Shaq or any other unsigned player. My point is, if you think its something Jazz specific why Shaq isn't signed, ask yourself why no one else has either. You may still think it's crazy not to sign him, but saying we're not signing him because of something that's specific to our incompetence does not add up. It can't be Jazz specific if no one else has signed him or any other unsigned FA. That doesn't come from rational thought, that comes from wanting to whine about your own team.

HH has already mentioned this that it's not about Shaq. We have a very specific weakness. And there are very specific available improvements we can make, but we refuse to do so. Shaq just happens to be one of them. But we can't bemoan nobody else picking up Shaq as an indicator when we're currently keeping a guy who we want Shaq to replace, who would be out of the league if we waived him. That logic just isn't consistent. We can't play both sides of the fence.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

Every team has guys like that. Go across the league and count how many guys you'd rather have Shaq or any other unsigned player. My point is, if you think its something Jazz specific why Shaq isn't signed, ask yourself why no one else has either. You may still think it's crazy not to sign him, but saying we're not signing him because of something that's specific to our incompetence does not add up. It can't be Jazz specific if no one else has signed him or any other unsigned FA. That doesn't come from rational thought, that comes from wanting to whine about your own team.

Wait... every team has bad players that are worse than shaq... every team has passed on shaq (not true but I'll humor you) so there must be something wrong with him because these teams are all more competent than us... This seems circular.

There are just some front offices that are bad... every team passes on good players in the draft every year. They are flawed in their evaluations. i don't think Shaq is out there murdering baby seals... I think they are just much more comfortable trusting bigger sample sizes and guys like Shaq don't have pedigree and have to prove it over a longer period of time.

Its why a team gives the full MLE to a backup 5 when their best player is a 5 and they just drafted a 5. They like the comfort of the proven guy.

 

[KqWIN]

Royce played at Baylor... Joe was a great find. He locks in on guys a lot in the draft. Its almost comical. He targets guys like Mike and won't deviate if the price is too high. This offseason a couple teams got the drop on us by flipping stuff we sent for something more than we got. There were circumstances but he either can't think on the fly or just didn't poke around enough. He was locked into his guys that he knew would be there so it likely doesn't matter. He drafts guys from Duke, Kansas, UNC... ain't like he's finding guys every year and developing them like Miami. I don't know that we've had one second round pick that has panned out since he took over... In the Jokic draft we had a second we sold because there weren't other guys that DL liked... that doesn't strike me as a wide net. DL is slowly reactive rather than actively looking to improve the team. He's a C+ GM that gets the credit of a 4.0 student.

As it relates to shaq he's gettable but that doesn't mean he can be had for a minimum deal. He might have minimum deals on the table in various locations that aren't ideal and eventually settles... but if some team came in with a 3 year 9M offer (we can do it through a sign and trade its quite easy). It might be the winning offer... that's what I mean by super gettable. Its fine though we can just let a glamour market scoop him up for a minimum deal.

The league as a whole misses on guys a lot for various reasons... and it isn't just Shaq. There are 10-15 guys much more deserving of a roster spot than NWG and its getting late... so hopefully DL hasn't closed up shop... but we know he likes to do his business early.

All of this sounds to me like you're just complaining about the Jazz...which is fine. But don't tell me that passing on a players that nobody wants is Jazz specific. Like a better FO would make moves to sign these players instead. Those players are unsigned because nobody wants them or nobody wants to give them what they're asking for.

Fans want action. Transactions are fun, but it clouds judgement. I'm not even going with the "no move is sometimes the best move". Sometimes we make a ton of moves and people still think we weren't active. Last off season for example, there was huge overhaul. All of them failed outside of Clarkson. And we made painful moves to off those contracts. You see, the problem is not DL has been a bad GM. It's that he's made awful moves. But people want more moves to happen. It is a perpetual complaint from every fan base that their FO is not active, whether they are actually active or not.

You think trading for Conley or Rubio way before we had to is slowly reactive? Moving up from Rudy and Mitchell? No, those were very active moves. Didn't make all of them good moves, but they weren't reactive. Reactive was actually doing nothing in the summer of 2018. But whether me make 10, 5, or 0 transactions....people will always whine about not being active enough. You can be "active" or "reactive"...but if you stink, you stink.

 

[Hekate]

The defensive splits being so similar just help show how disruptive he is... just want people to know he's an elite perimeter defender... not just a hustler Ellijah Millsap type.

The interesting thing is he could be used in multiple positions on or off ball and can guard 1-3. He has a definite NBA skill you can bank on. The other stuff is interesting and if he refines/develops he's got potential for more.

I wouldn't call Matisse elite on-ball defender either so there may be a difference in how we view it. I think their on ball defense is pretty much the same but Matisse's range of impact is much larger and that makes him kinda special.

 

[KqWIN]

Wait... every team has bad players that are worse than shaq... every team has passed on shaq (not true but I'll humor you) so there must be something wrong with him because these teams are all more competent than us... This seems circular.

There are just some front offices that are bad... every team passes on good players in the draft every year. They are flawed in their evaluations. i don't think Shaq is out there murdering baby seals... I think they are just much more comfortable trusting bigger sample sizes and guys like Shaq don't have pedigree and have to prove it over a longer period of time.

Its why a team gives the full MLE to a backup 5 when their best player is a 5 and they just drafted a 5. They like the comfort of the proven guy.

I seriously do not know what you're trying to say here. I will say this as plainly as possible:

You can't say the lack of a certain move is Jazz specific when every team in the league is also making the same exact decision.

 

[KqWIN]

HH has already mentioned this that it's not about Shaq. We have a very specific weakness. And there are very specific available improvements we can make, but we refuse to do so. Shaq just happens to be one of them. But we can't bemoan nobody else picking up Shaq as an indicator when we're currently keeping a guy who we want Shaq to replace, who would be out of the league if we waived him. That logic just isn't consistent. We can't play both sides of the fence.

It doesn't matter if it's Shaq or any other player available. The point is exactly the same. If a player is unsigned, you cannot attribute that to being Jazz specific. Every team in the league is making that decision.

If you really mean to say that the Jazz are the only team in the league that should interest in Shaq or any other player for X, Y, and Z....I don't know what to tell you.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

NBA GMs just prefer name brands... its why Jerami Grant gets 3/60M when teams should be looking for the next Jerami Grant and spending in a more prudent manner.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

I seriously do not know what you're trying to say here. I will say this as plainly as possible:

You can't say the lack of a certain move is Jazz specific when every team in the league is also making the same exact decision.

You said... Every team has guys like NWG that are probably worse than Shaq... you also saying that if all the teams are passing on a guy its a problem with him... when every team has guys that aren't good. Sounds like a league problem the way you set it up. Its a circular argument.

It is also likely that he has offers at the minimum and is hoping something better comes along.

At this point I have no interest in discussing it further... I am comfortable saying that if all 30 gms pass on Shaq that they are wrong... full stop.