CHINA vs the NBA.

[aussietin]

really? i thought you are an aussie lol. And you said very few people are pro communist in Hong Kong, do you have data to back it up? I know Ron said about 70% of them were pro government in Hong Kong or something like that(just him, even I find that number a bit hard to believe).

but if you google words like "pro police rally hong kong" and you'll find videos of people gathering in thousands in support of the Hong Kong government and police. that doesn't seem "very very very few" to me.

Yeah thousands of people people gathered for police rally compared to 1.3 million for anti extradition rally. You do the math.

Pro communist and pro money are two very different things. People support China because it gives them stable wealth. You’re also conflating pro government with supporting one country two systems which couldn’t be more wrong.

 

[aussietin]

you think censorship doesn't exist here in the US? Well just moments ago ESPN cut out Stephen A when he started talking politics. That is CENSORSHIP for you. Not to mention years ago Kanye got cut out for telling "Bush doesn't care about black people" on TV. Doc said it best, "free speech does not mean free consequences." People somehow believes the right to free speech would miraculously bring solutions to all real life problems. Unfortunately it does not.

No but people have the chance to educate themselves and have access to information

 

[aussietin]

yeah, same argument. 1-3 million people makes up to about 0.2% of Chinese population. Even every single one of them disagrees, what difference would that make? Even the KKK still exists in the US today. Are they relevant from a macro perspective?

If 3 million people are being deprived of the most basic human rights, you can be damn sure it matters and should make a difference.

 

[Rubashov]

Excellent perspective from our man @aussietin. Would rep.

 

[jom2003]

Yeah thousands of people people gathered for police rally compared to 1.3 million for anti extradition rally. You do the math.

Pro communist and pro money are two very different things. People support China because it gives them stable wealth. You’re also conflating pro government with supporting one country two systems which couldn’t be more wrong.

Only thousands showed up doesn't necessarily mean there were only thousands who were pro government. In fact for most protests in Hong Kong I've only seen hundreds showed up in videos, but that doesn't mean there were only hundreds of protsters. Again, it was you who said "very very very few" of them were pro-Communist in Hong Kong, do you have actual stats to back it up?

And would you mind if I ask, what is the difference between pro-government and pro one country two systems? Aren't one country two system the Chinese Communist government's idea? By giving support to either the HongKong government or Chinese central Communist government, doesn't that make you a supporter of the "one country two system"?

 

[jom2003]

No but people have the chance to educate themselves and have access to information

Same thing can be said about people in China though. See there is this thing called VPN. And based on what I've seen when I visited there, VPN was pretty commonly used and made available to most people, at least in a major city like Shanghai. There are even hotels in Shanghai that provide foreigner like me with automatic access to VPN. It's built-in to the WIFI, so I can access websites like Youtube, facebook, Google with no issue at all. All governments practice censorship to a certain extend. Some are just stricter than others.

 

[jom2003]

If 3 million people are being deprived of the most basic human rights, you can be damn sure it matters and should make a difference.

You missed the point. Of course it makes a difference to everyone in this world, but not to the Chinese in the grand scheme of things. And unfortunately that's all it matters. We can sit here and talk all day about everything that is wrong with the Chinese government and its Communist regime, but: 1 they are currently doing great economically. 2 the majority of people in China support their government at the moment. Some people simply don't care about other things unless those things would make direct impact to their lives.

 

[Eminence]

If approximately a quarter of adults are turning out to protest against something you can be pretty damn sure that thing isn't very well supported in that country.

 

[JimLes]

What good does free speech or democracy do if you dont have a job, medical care ,can't feed yourself or your family, are in fear of your own lives every day?

It's a trademark of oppressive regimes and populists of all stripes to make this a binary choice. You make it sound like free speech and democracy are antithetical to jobs, medical care, or security. You don't have to choose one over the other. Not in China, not anywhere.

 

[aussietin]

Only thousands showed up doesn't necessarily mean there were only thousands who were pro government. In fact for most protests in Hong Kong I've only seen hundreds showed up in videos, but that doesn't mean there were only hundreds of protsters. Again, it was you who said "very very very few" of them were pro-Communist in Hong Kong, do you have actual stats to back it up?

And would you mind if I ask, what is the difference between pro-government and pro one country two systems? Aren't one country two system the Chinese Communist government's idea? By giving support to either the HongKong government or Chinese central Communist government, doesn't that make you a supporter of the "one country two system"?

supporting one country two systems means you want to maintain the status quo because it gets you the most money. supporting the CCP means you ascribe by their values. two very different things. and no, i dont have stats because people arent going to tick the box in a survey that says 'fk the chinese government unless they give me the most money'. Theres obviously a subset that is deeply invested in the CCP and are loyal to them, but there are far more who support them only because of vested interests and would be the first to leave if those interests disappear. not too hard to understand.

also, idk what you mean by only thousands showed up for pro government, compared to only hundreds of protestors. literally over a million people in a city of 7 million showed up to anti extradition protests, if you want your 'stats'. inb4 you say 'omg only 1 million went to protest so that means 6 million support the CCP', because thats the level of logic im expecting from you now

 

[jom2003]

It's a trademark of oppressive regimes and populists of all stripes to make this a binary choice. You make it sound like free speech and democracy are antithetical to jobs, medical care, or security. You don't have to choose one over the other. Not in China, not anywhere.

in a perfect world, yes. but the world is not perfect. look at iran, ukraine or yemen... we've seen plenty of examples in which people were forced to make difficult decisions and choose one over the other. We as the United States want to promote freedom and democracy for everyone in every country but in doing so we have to give up tons of money, food, military support and other resources along the way. and it could backfire on us easily...

if history has taught us anything, it is that we simply can't save everyone...

 

[jom2003]

supporting one country two systems means you want to maintain the status quo because it gets you the most money. supporting the CCP means you ascribe by their values. two very different things. and no, i dont have stats because people arent going to tick the box in a survey that says 'fk the chinese government unless they give me the most money'. Theres obviously a subset that is deeply invested in the CCP and are loyal to them, but there are far more who support them only because of vested interests and would be the first to leave if those interests disappear. not too hard to understand.

also, idk what you mean by only thousands showed up for pro government, compared to only hundreds of protestors. literally over a million people in a city of 7 million showed up to anti extradition protests, if you want your 'stats'. inb4 you say 'omg only 1 million went to protest so that means 6 million support the CCP', because thats the level of logic im expecting from you now

k, fair enough. still trying to learn about the Hong Kong situation myself since i haven't been there for years. i mostly agree with you on the Hongkong situation and wish they can come to some sort of resolution soon.

but one thing to point out is that anti-extradition doesn't necessarily mean anti-CCP. i think i can tell the difference on that. plus i don't quite get your logic behind going against the idea of supporting the government based on common interests. isn't that what a government supposed to be? if a government fails to support its people with financial opportunities and resources, i'm sure there'd be chaos in most countries, not just China.