Christianity shrinking in U.S.; Mormon numbers essentially flat

[Gameface]

"all atheists" is too big a category. There are many atheists I disagree with.

Let me follow my pattern of eluding a poorly worded question by asking a different question: what did people have faith in before the emergence of monotheisms?

Just to piggyback on this a little, I usually don't see religion and lack thereof the same way as other atheists I encounter. In fact (maybe I'm a dick) I often categorize other atheists as "angry at God atheists." They generally come from a religious background and at some point feel like if God were real things wouldn't be the way they are, so now they claim to be atheists. They're the ones I assume will go back to God at some point in their life, like when their SO tells them to, or when they have kids, or when they suffer a significant loss or fear death.

More often than not I do not call myself an atheist. I really don't want to be thrown in with the majority of that community. But I also don't want the title to lead anyone to think that I believe I know anything about the existence or lack of existence of any sort of God. Just as has been pointed out in any debate about the existence of God that has gone on for more than two minutes, you can't prove a negative. So for me any claim has to first be substantiated before it can be considered. The claim that God exists is completely unsubstantiated and therefore I do not give it any consideration. So I'm not making any claim of knowledge about God's existence. He doesn't get that special attention. Supernatural beings of all sorts fall into the same category. They violate the laws of reality as far as can be determined so they are impossible in my view. It requires some sort of evidence that such a thing is even possible before I would consider the existence of God more seriously than I would consider the existence of the Flying Spaghetti Monster.

I do not come from a religious background. I have never in my life been taught or believed that God existed. I think that is a pretty fundamental difference in the way I approach this. Atheism is not a form of rebellion for me. I am not rejecting my parents, nor my upbringing or my community by declaring my atheism.

Faith in the supernatural is an odd thing to me. Very, very odd. I get that most the people around me participate, but it simply doesn't make any sense to me.

 

[Stoked]

I think you're taking my point a bit too far. I'm not saying Baptists, Lutherans etc aren't Christians. I'm saying 70% of people are not. I'm certainly not saying only a certain denomination is saved. Although I would argue Mormonism is a bit different (work based salvation vs grace based)

Look, if 70% of people were Christians, our nation would act quite a bit differently. That's what I'm trying to get at. James teaches that our works are evidence of our faith, and I would argue that as a nation, our works show where our faith is. Fwiw, I don't get much into doctrine. Doctrine is man made for the most part...there are only a few salvation issues. I mean, I don't think people who believe in speaking in tongues are the only ones getting into heaven or going to hell for example.

OK, I think I am picking up on it here.

Basically people that say "I am Christian" then go out and live a very unchristlike life. That is indeed different.

I would agree that those that lead a christlike life (not always the same as a Christian) is less than 70%. far less imo.

 

[Stoked]

We may never be tightly allied on any particular project or perspective, but I find it easy to live alongside this general perspective.

That said, I bristle at the idea that life is a "test." That's one of the most thoroughly unromantic and enervating concepts I can think of, and life is about the opposite: increasing intensity and romantic fictions.

Your perspective makes a fair amount of sense to me on a pragmatic, political level. But life goes beyond the usual framings of pragmatics and politics.

I agree that it does. My definition is for the purpose of this religious discussion. I also think that this life is the single greatest blessing our Lord can give us. The passion, emotions, pain...all of it.

But in God's plan (I believe He has one) this is His way of seeing who is fit to live with Him again. So spiritually I see it as a test.

 

[Jazz Spazz]

Now why in the world would I answer this kind of personal question? My comment applied generally, to all atheists. "Faith" and "Belief" are not processes that are contained or controlled within some notion of God. This must be difficult for you to grasp. For someone who doesn't believe in God, what is a "secondary faith issue"?

How about you speak for all atheists then. What do all atheists have faith in?

"all atheists" is too big a category. There are many atheists I disagree with.

Let me follow my pattern of eluding a poorly worded question by asking a different question: what did people have faith in before the emergence of monotheisms?

You just made a comment prior to this that applied generally to all atheists in your own words.
Now you won't respond to it directed at you, or for all atheists because it's too big yo?

Let me follow your pattern and totally disregard your question in response to my question... with another question.

Are you a Dodger fan?

It wasn't a poorly worded question, it was just a question you are uncomfortable answering. It was pretty straight forward based on your willingness just prior to speak for all atheists.

 

[NAOS]

You just made a comment prior to this that applied generally to all atheists in your own words.
Now you won't respond to it directed at you, or for all atheists because it's too big yo?

Let me follow your pattern and totally disregard your question in response to my question... with another question.

Are you a Dodger fan?

It wasn't a poorly worded question, it was just a question you are uncomfortable answering. It was pretty straight forward based on your willingness just prior to speak for all atheists.

your stubborn blindness becomes more and more legendary.

 

[NAOS]

Also, atheists still have access to the process of 'believing'. You don't have to go through any 'god' in order to have that. For someone who likes to debate with atheists, I'd think you'd either know this already or at least respect them enough not to throw out this kind of castigation. Calling my experience/world or their experiences/worlds "zero faith" is wildly off-the-mark.

for the record, these comments apply to any living human. I whittled it down to "atheists" for the sake of the discussion.

but this obviously no different than asking what all atheists believe, right?????? give me a ****ing break.

 

[Jazz Spazz]

your stubborn blindness becomes more and more legendary.

Keep spinning bro.

Simple question.

How about this if it makes you feel better.

What do some atheists that you feel comfortable speaking for have faith in?

 

[NAOS]

Atheists are united in the belief that there is no pre-determined design in creation. There is no plan. There is no God. I figured you knew that already.

After that, there is a startling amount of diversity in beliefs.

 

[addictionary]

I've never met two Christians who believe in the same God. Every last Christian I've talked to at any length has established their own criteria for what the God they worship must be like.

Individualization, bro. Modernized societies inevitably got sucked into it and a point comes that if you don't belong to a cult you develop your own individual christianity or Islam or Judaism or whatever and atheists start calling you theist as in "Why but you are not a Christian, you are a theist and you don't know it yet". I get that religions are antique and have their structure based on community structure and interrelationship patterns but belief is a belief and everyone should be free to feel bonded to a religion and live it the way they want as long as they respect and not violate other people's personal/communal belief space.

 

[NAOS]

Keep spinning bro.

Simple question.

How about this if it makes you feel better.

What do some atheists that you feel comfortable speaking for have faith in?

It's a simple question to ask what an entire population believes?

 

[RandyForRubio]

Just to annoy Naos and cherry pick topics.

I think there is a fundamental misunderstanding out there of the "Mormon" salvation not being based on grace. People tend to incorrectly apply a heavier weight to the works part of the LDS doctrine than the grace part of the doctrine. The most important part of the doctrine is by far the grace of Christ. The works idea has morphed in some peoples minds into the idea that LDS people think they can "work" their way into heaven, when that is fundamentally false. The works part of the doctrine is basically this. Obey the commandments and follow Christ. If you come unto Him in this way, then is His grace sufficient for you.

It is not that men can do works and save themselves. It is that men need to work to come unto Christ. Christ is the only one that can save, and He is the one that sets the terms.

I don't know if I explained this well, but it's a try.

You explained it great! Actually helped clean up some misconceptions.

I do disagree on some points.

I think that we choose to follow or not to follow, and then our works are evidence that we are following. I can help people, love everybody, but that doesn't cause me to love Jesus. I would argue that loving Jesus envokes me to do those things though. Does that make sense?

And you're nothing like NAOS. You can have a conversation without being insulting.

 

[babe]

Game's latest exposition shows me he has a huge common ground with me. I have not "seen God", I can't get a process server(legalspeak for the guy who knocks on your door at 11 pm with your divorce papers from your wife, or your eviction papers from your landlord) to deliver a legal summons for God to appear in court and prove his existence, so there is to my scientific or legal mind really "no God". Nobody has to believe in God on no evidence.

I am glad there is no compelling evidence, because that means, when I choose to love God and abide by the good I attribute to His wisdom or commands, it is something I do voluntarily. Because I love Him.

I could not point to anything about my life that would prove anything about the special benefits of my faith. I might be comparable to Job in the Bible more than the millionaires on TV ministries.

I really don't share every aspect of "faith" that others talk about, but I believe God loves people, and even me. Overall, it does me no harm to live by good principles.

 

[Jazz Spazz]

Atheists are united in the belief that there is no pre-determined design in creation. There is no plan. There is no God. I figured you knew that already.

After that, there is a startling amount of diversity in beliefs.

faith noun \ˈfāth\

: strong belief or trust in someone or something

: belief in the existence of God : strong religious feelings or beliefs

: a system of religious beliefs

Would you consider atheism to be a religion?
I've always understood faith to be tied directly to religion and God or Gods.

If atheism is considered a religion, is it possible to "have faith" that no God exists?

Some atheists deny it is a religion. One stated it this way... calling atheism a religion is like calling baldness a hair color.
Others claim it to be a religion.

Please don't get defensive, or take this the wrong way.
I'm asking these questions because I'm trying to understand this point of view, varied as it is.

 

[RandyForRubio]

speaking of televangelists, I can't stand Joel Osteen. He's the worst.

 

[Jazz Spazz]

You explained it great! Actually helped clean up some misconceptions.

I do disagree on some points.

I think that we choose to follow or not to follow, and then our works are evidence that we are following. I can help people, love everybody, but that doesn't cause me to love Jesus. I would argue that loving Jesus envokes me to do those things though. Does that make sense?

And you're nothing like NAOS. You can have a conversation without being insulting.

Aw, I'm probably more like NAOS than either of us care to acknowledge. I like our little seinfeld arguments that are about nothing. NAOS is a decent fellow, just an abrasive know it all. We tend to clash at times because it's hard for two know it alls to get along.

I think your statement is fine and I'm not even sure how you see it different than what is stated in LDS doctrine.
It's the same, love God, love your neighbor. Those two seem to hold all of the other commandments and things in their hands so to speak. Yes if you love God, and love your neighbor those things will come. I agree that it is not necessarily the same in reverse.

The differences between LDS doctrine and other Christian denominations is really the question of what are the things you do if you are truly following the Savior/or love God.

Grace is seen as a great divide by some, but really if you understand both stances they are basically the same.

 

[Gameface]

speaking of televangelists, I can't stand Joel Osteen. He's the worst.

I've never seen a televangelist that didn't creep me right the hell out. How people watch that and open up their wallets for those scammers is beyond me.

 

[Jazz Spazz]

I've never seen a televangelist that didn't creep me right the hell out. How people watch that and open up their wallets for those scammers is beyond me.

Same here. Blows my mind.

 

[Stoked]

Would you consider atheism to be a religion?
I've always understood faith to be tied directly to religion and God or Gods.

If atheism is considered a religion, is it possible to "have faith" that no God exists?

Some atheists deny it is a religion. One stated it this way... calling atheism a religion is like calling baldness a hair color.
Others claim it to be a religion.

Please don't get defensive, or take this the wrong way.
I'm asking these questions because I'm trying to understand this point of view, varied as it is.

I have stated that atheism is an expression of faith and I got a strong push back.

 

[Jazz Spazz]

I have stated that atheism is a faith and I got a strong push back.

I mentioned zero faith in regards to someone I thought was an atheist, and that was seen as offensive.

I'm trying to understand how faith is seen from the vantage point of those that don't believe in God. I figure I'm missing something somewhere if that is offensive.

 

[Stoked]

I mentioned zero faith in regards to someone I thought was an atheist, and that was seen as offensive.

I'm trying to understand how faith is seen from the vantage point of those that don't believe in God. I figure I'm missing something somewhere if that is offensive.

My comments were along the line of since God cannot be proven or unproven then any belief that he does or does not exist is based on faith.

To me faith = belief in something that is not proven.

https://dictionary.reference.com/browse/Faith?s=t see #2 specifically