Conley For Horford Discussion


latin jazz

Well-Known Member
Status quo is the path to mediocrity and will sow the seeds of either wasting DM's prime or him asking out.
To be fair to management, they were pretty aggressive last year. Maybe overreacted to the Rocket's spanking and went full dribble penetration/shooting to replace defense/length. Now the Lakers have risen while the Rockets experiment exploded.

By DL comments some weeks ago, it seems we are looking into regaining defense/length again.
 

Handlogten's Heros

Well-Known Member
2019 Award Winner
This is fair. Although it seems Quin system is a nightmare for PGs (except dumb George Hill, who fit like a glove)

With Doc at the helm, they probably keep the Vets and try to move expendable guys like Mike Scott first. That would only take a 2nd rounder (or two).

Perhaps Philly is willing to pay a big tax bill this year (bringing Doc point into that direction). Time will tell how desperate they are.
We just don’t need a true pg. mike was also far worse at creating for others than I thought he’d be.

I think for Mike to be his best version he needs to be a primary ball handler. He still gives off ball value of course. I feel like Joe is best cast in that secondary role. When JC is in there is no secondary... it’s just all JC which is fine for a chunk of the game.

The fit just isn’t ideal.
 

latin jazz

Well-Known Member
I have to parachute into these conversations at random these days. Whenever I do, I see considerably more typing about Mike’s offense than his defense, which I think is pretty odd—and also quite a giveaway considering his offense (taken in whole) is nothing to crow about.

But it’s his defense that lowers our ceiling for as long as he’s here. And if we play things out with him on the roster, we’ll have very little room to maneuver. We’re in a corner. And the smoking gun for all the woe is his defense.

I feel almost a moral duty to keep this perspective frothing right at the top of JFC. Sorry I quoted you this time, haha.
I'm not that worried about his defense if he mostly plays against reserves, which he did in the PO (he would sit early and lead the bench). I can see that trend going forward, depending on matchups. What is really concerning is that we don't have a single defensive stopper on the roster anymore. None. Royce was exposed. Joe has lost a step. JC is, well, JC. Bogie tries but doesn't have the tools (like Conley). DM concentrates on O. Then you have guys like Bradley, Niang, oh my. Big task coming ahead for the FO.
 

latin jazz

Well-Known Member
We just don’t need a true pg. mike was also far worse at creating for others than I thought he’d be.

I think for Mike to be his best version he needs to be a primary ball handler. He still gives off ball value of course. I feel like Joe is best cast in that secondary role. When JC is in there is no secondary... it’s just all JC which is fine for a chunk of the game.

The fit just isn’t ideal.
I think we will see Mike being the 'nominal' starter and mostly play with the bench. Joe is lost without a rolling partner. Felt for him for having to play with Davis' corpse/Bradley. Maybe he gets back into the starting lineup to play pg (in that case we need to pair him with someone better than Royce to defend the opposing pg)
JC is such an akward fit in our system. But our bench was so bad that he became gold.
 

FAILED STATE

Well-Known Member
I'm not that worried about his defense if he mostly plays against reserves, which he did in the PO (he would sit early and lead the bench). I can see that trend going forward, depending on matchups. What is really concerning is that we don't have a single defensive stopper on the roster anymore. None. Royce was exposed. Joe has lost a step. JC is, well, JC. Bogie tries but doesn't have the tools (like Conley). DM concentrates on O. Then you have guys like Bradley, Niang, oh my. Big task coming ahead for the FO.
I don’t think Royce was exposed. He definitely plays with a lot of sub-par perimeter defenders, though. And, in a monotonous/predictable scheme. He’s an above-average defender (in a league where it’s impossible to breathe on your opponent).
 

latin jazz

Well-Known Member
I don’t think Royce was exposed. He definitely plays with a lot of sub-par perimeter defenders, though. And, in a monotonous/predictable scheme. He’s an above-average defender (in a league where it’s impossible to breathe on your opponent).
Agree he is an above average defender. My wording was wrong. I wanted to say that Murray exposed/made pretty clear that Royce is better suited to defend forwards/wings rather than quick guards. He just doesn't have the lateral quickness. And we have no one to guard the Dame/Murray/Steph/Harden/Trae/Kemba/Kyrie's of the world (heck, include 50 point-Derrick Rose in that list :p )
 
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FAILED STATE

Well-Known Member
Agree he is an above average defender. My wording was too wrong. I wanted to say that Murray exposed/made pretty clear that Royce is better suited to defend forwards/wings rather than quick guards. He just doesn't have the lateral quickness. And we have no one to guard the Dame/Murray/Steph/Harden/Trae/Kemba/Kyrie's of the world (heck, include 50 point-Derrick Rose in that list :p )
This is why I’d want to kick the tires on a Denis Schroeder deal.
 

Cptgrnlngs22

Active Member
If we got horford and Milton would we save enough to resign JC and use the MLE? Or do we still need to dump Davis? Maybe they will take him too hahaha

I’d love to make that trade keep JC and sign KDunn with our MLE

Core players:
Mitchell
Gobert
Bogie
Joe
Royce
JC
Horford
KDunn
Milton

That’s a solid group.


Sent from my iPhone using JazzFanz mobile app
 

cowhide

Well-Known Member
He means well but highlighting his game 3 performance while conveniently not mentioning his horrid game 5 and game 7 performances.
i was highlighting his overall performance but you should read my comment again. I mentioned game 7 he performed badly.
 

cowhide

Well-Known Member
If by “well” you mean he continued to drag the defense down the path of non-title contention, then sure.
Yes i guess Mike was the only one playing bad defense. where is the criticism of Joe who disappeared and who got burned constantly on defense. Mike seems like the whipping boy on this board. Everyone else wants to over look how poorly Clarkson played in several games or how our 3-d guy Royce couldn't cover or slow down Murray and is also afraid to shoot it. Naing's lack of rebounding rarely gets mention and some people on this board defend the get rid of Niang comments as if he is the missing piece.
I am not against trading Conley but his stats were pretty good in the bubble. I certainly wouldn't trade him for Horford considering he has more years on his contract. I do not think Conley was the reason why the Jazz lost against Denver. The reason the Jazz lost is that they lack size and athleticism at the 2/3/4 positions.
 

Handlogten's Heros

Well-Known Member
2019 Award Winner
Yes i guess Mike was the only one playing bad defense. where is the criticism of Joe who disappeared and who got burned constantly on defense. Mike seems like the whipping boy on this board. Everyone else wants to over look how poorly Clarkson played in several games or how our 3-d guy Royce couldn't cover or slow down Murray and is also afraid to shoot it. Naing's lack of rebounding rarely gets mention and some people on this board defend the get rid of Niang comments as if he is the missing piece.
I am not against trading Conley but his stats were pretty good in the bubble. I certainly wouldn't trade him for Horford considering he has more years on his contract. I do not think Conley was the reason why the Jazz lost against Denver. The reason the Jazz lost is that they lack size and athleticism at the 2/3/4 positions.
Mike isn’t the only one to blame in the playoffs but he shifts the matchups down the line. Can’t hide DM as well because mike is small. Joe and Royce struggled defensively for sure... but they won’t get hunted like Mike would. Mike got picked on during the year a bit... teams that go more iso in the half court would absolutely hunt his ***. You think LeBron is letting him hide? He’s not unusable but when your best player is a 6 foot guard you may want to avoid having another building block that is small. You can win 50 games that way but you ain’t getting to the finals that way.
 

FAILED STATE

Well-Known Member
Yes i guess Mike was the only one playing bad defense. where is the criticism of Joe who disappeared and who got burned constantly on defense. Mike seems like the whipping boy on this board. Everyone else wants to over look how poorly Clarkson played in several games or how our 3-d guy Royce couldn't cover or slow down Murray and is also afraid to shoot it. Naing's lack of rebounding rarely gets mention and some people on this board defend the get rid of Niang comments as if he is the missing piece.
I am not against trading Conley but his stats were pretty good in the bubble. I certainly wouldn't trade him for Horford considering he has more years on his contract. I do not think Conley was the reason why the Jazz lost against Denver. The reason the Jazz lost is that they lack size and athleticism at the 2/3/4 positions.
What HH said

And we ****ing half-gutted the team for Mike and paid him more than anyone. So.... yeah.
 

jom2003

Well-Known Member
If we got horford and Milton would we save enough to resign JC and use the MLE? Or do we still need to dump Davis? Maybe they will take him too hahaha

I’d love to make that trade keep JC and sign KDunn with our MLE

Core players:
Mitchell
Gobert
Bogie
Joe
Royce
JC
Horford
KDunn
Milton

That’s a solid group.


Sent from my iPhone using JazzFanz mobile app
If you look at their contract, Philly is more likely to give us JRich than Milton. Jrich will most definitely opt out and walk for nothing in 2021.
 

FAILED STATE

Well-Known Member
Also, Mike is VERY MUCH a reason we’re undersized at the 2/3/4 because in order to be on the floor next to Mitchell, those positions SPECIFICALLY get shifted smaller to accommodate.
I’ve found that JFC seems to be perpetually in a space of needing to be reminded of this. Why don’t some people seem to understand this?
 

Hekate

Well-Known Member
Horford at 4 is suicide. Conley is the better player, also the better fit. It doesn't matter much if he starts or not if we could add 2 good defenders that can contribute on offense. Our starting line-up is a tad small but it's not like they play the whole 48, if a guy like Moe Harkless or Kris Dunn came over they could play with starters. There is not one bench player on the Jazz that is a plus defender. The talk on Conley or our starting line-up would be hella different if we had players that could come in and play some defense.

Also Mitchell is not that undersized guarding 2s, He has good wingspan and could be a passable defender but he is just so ****ing lazy on defense. I wonder what would happen if he defended the point of attack.
 

Handlogten's Heros

Well-Known Member
2019 Award Winner
If they did go the re-negotiate and extend route its the order of operations that would get really tricky for me. I think you could pawn Ed off and I think the cap will be $115M with a big escrow. Any other cap number will constipate the market... if it is just a one year luxury tax allowance then that is playing favorites to the teams next to the tax and teams with space would likely not feel it is fair.

You could clear enough space to get Wood (not that I think he'd even be DL's target) but you would likely have to do the Ed and Mike moves without knowing who will sign because of the calendar. We should be able to re-sing JC and use the MLE without hitting the tax... so unless you open up actual cap space it makes no sense to extend an older player just to give you some breathing room between the tax. Worst case you could waive and stretch Ed and avoid the tax.
 

idiot

Well-Known Member
Just throwing this out here for fun since it involves Horford and Conley (and since I consider Horford a full-time C these days, I can't really talk myself into taking him in as a Gobert backup/questionable PF). It's another trade idea that will (and should) never happen, though it does perhaps seem to solve several issues that are out there. I tweaked an idea on the internet that wasn't legal until it worked, it and seems to have some potential positives for each team.

Picture2.png

In case there are problems with the image:
Utah out: Gobert, Conley, Bogey, Davis
Utah in: Hayward, Horford, B. Simmons, Theis

Philly out: Horford, Simmons, Mike Scott, Zhaire Smith
Philly in: Conley, Bogey, Robert Williams (and would probably need some draft considerations)

Boston out: Hayward, R. Williams, Theis
Boston in: Gobert, Ed Davis, Zhaire Smith, Mike Scott (the last 3 for salary purposes to make the trade legal, though Scott is at least mildly useful)

Advantages for Utah:
Off of Conley contract; let someone else take the Gobert extension risk; lose the best player, but get 2nd & 3rd best players back; all four are useful pieces (each decent to very good defenders if utilized properly); 8 man rotation would be: DM, Hayward, Simmons, Ingles, Horford, O'Neale, Theis, Clarkson (hopefully), before getting to Niang, Bradley, Morgan, Oni, etc.; (of course we'd also have the all-bitterness/jealousy team by adding Hayward and Simmons)

Advantages for Philly:
Fixes their books; allow for a path to build smartly around Embiid; seems to give a starting 5 that makes pretty good sense together: Embiid, Tobias, Bogey, Richardson, Conley

Advantages for Boston:
Gets best player in deal; eliminates Hayward's positional redundancy in the process; saves a couple million (and I think should be able to accommodate Gobert raise); Likely starting 5 seems great: Gobert, Tatum, Brown, Smart, Kemba

Generally I think the trade is interesting because it allows all three teams to stay below the tax this coming year (and I think it offers a path for all to stay there in the future, if maybe a little trickier); it also allows for a better fit for the three players who were being underutilized because of the original team's makeup: Hayward, Horford, Conley (not sure if the troubles maximizing Simmons has been totally solved, but maybe it's also better?)

I'll leave the disadvantages (many of which I'm sure I haven't thought of yet) to anyone who wants to take a crack at them.
 

LogGrad98

Well-Known Member
Contributor
We just don’t need a true pg. mike was also far worse at creating for others than I thought he’d be.

I think for Mike to be his best version he needs to be a primary ball handler. He still gives off ball value of course. I feel like Joe is best cast in that secondary role. When JC is in there is no secondary... it’s just all JC which is fine for a chunk of the game.

The fit just isn’t ideal.
I want to see DM and Ingles as the primary playmakers. We don't need a Conley. I want to see a long defensive-minded combo guard to run with DM, and that's about it.
 
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