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Conservative and Liberal. Nature or Nurture?

Red

Red

Well-Known Member
At Joe Bagadonuts request, and inspired by an observation first posed by franklin in the "Never Trump" thread, I pose the question: are the differences that seperate liberals and conservatives the result of nurture, or are those differences inherent and therefore based on nature? It was Joe's wish that we have such a discussion separate from any political context, that is to say, separate from the 2016 Presidential election. What I did find is that if one simply googles "liberal and conservative personalities", you'll be buried in articles dealing with the subject of what makes a person conservative, and what makes a person liberal. Such as this one:

https://2012election.procon.org/view.resource.php?resourceID=004818

Peer review doesn't always equal intelligent, lol, witness the Harvard yearly ignoble awards, lol. And some of the articles cited above seem silly on the surface. I would like to know more about the "demonstrated"(?) brain biology differences cited.

Not sure how much I could really contribute to this proposed discussion. It's as new to me as many of you, perhaps. And, although I'm separating it from a 2016 political season context, if we are ever again going to get back to that dictum about "politics is the art of compromise", then certainly liberals and conservatives discussing what makes us tick so differently, can only help all around, I imagine. I may even decide to be born a conservative in my next life:)

Actually, Joe, you introduced me to the "cultural appropriation" movement, thereby introducing me to my conservative self, since that movement is liberally inspired, and one of the dumbest examples of political correctness run amuck I have so far encountered!
 
Other links reposted from the "Never Trump" thread...

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/calling-truce-political-wars/
--------------------------------------


1. Flattering liberal portrait:

"They [Liberals] do not equate downtrodden or impoverished status with inherent unworthiness or inability . . . In a nutshell, liberals are less selfish and more empathic and tolerant than conservatives. Their fear of aiding the undeserving is outweighed by their fear not helping the truly needy . . . Liberals do not need to bolster their self-esteem by living in a stratified society in which they can claim superiority over this or that group . . . Finally, liberals do not blame the victim or make defensive attributions . . . Liberals acknowledge that fate can be capricious and that bad things happen to good people."

2. Flattering conservative portrait:

"Conservatives realize the importance of incentives and that no, or little, aid is often the best help of all. The conservative response to social problems avoids the simplistic first response of treating the symptom by creating a new and expensive government program . . . conservatives are more integratively complex than liberals because they understand how often well-intentioned political reforms have unintended consequences or perverse effects . . . Finally, conservatives understand how free markets work, [they] recognize that the invisible hand of free market competition leads in the long term to incentives to produce good at levels of quality and quantity that satisfy effective demand for those goods."

3. Unflattering liberal portrait:

"They practice, in effect, a kind of social homeopathic medicine that treats symptoms rather than underlying causes . . . They fail to take into account the growing burden on the economy and the perverse incentives that dependency on public programs creates . . . Liberals not only exaggerate the efficacy of government; they underestimate the creativity of the free market. Many liberals mindlessly condemn capitalism as a culture of greed and ignore the power of the market to stimulate hard work, investment and entrepreneurship . . . [Liberalism] is a reflection of the widespread 'psychology of dependency' in which government, by transference, takes on the role of nurturant, powerful parent."

4. Unflattering conservative portrait:

"[C]onservatives do not understand how prevalent situational constraints on achievement are and thus commit the fundamental attribution error when they hold the poor responsible for poverty . . . [C]onservatives are too prone to engage in zero-sum thinking, either I keep my money or the government takes it. They fail to appreciate the possibility of positive-sum resolutions of societal conflicts . . . Conservatives cling to the comforting moral illusion that there is a sharp distinction between allowing people to suffer and making people suffer. Finally, conservatives fail to recognize that even if each transaction in a free market meets their standards of fairness, the cumulative result could be colossally unfair. Some people will acquire enormous power over others . . . [C]onservatism and compassion are antithetical." 29



https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2012/02/studies-conservatives-are-from-mars-liberals-are-from-venus/252416/
 
I don't believe the differences are as stark as people generally believe.
For example: It's equally as insulting to a conservative to be considered uncaring of people in need as it is insulting to a liberal to be accused of wanting only big government and freebies for everyone.

The problem is largely hyperbolic partisan and media driven messages that drive wedges between otherwise mostly like-minded people.

I only consider myself a conservative (though not necessarily republican) because I believe in very cautious and calculated change that needs to be measured, adjusted, and tweaked appropriately.
Whether fair or not, I typically feel liberals speak of things in more sweeping and far-reaching change. Maybe I'm wrong.

As I've said many times, I don't consider myself pro or anti either party or that party's candidates, per se.
But a Romney message resonates better with me than does a Hillary or Obama (or Bernie).
 
Red said:
Other links reposted from the "Never Trump" thread...

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/calling-truce-political-wars/
--------------------------------------


1. Flattering liberal portrait:

"They [Liberals] do not equate downtrodden or impoverished status with inherent unworthiness or inability . . . In a nutshell, liberals are less selfish and more empathic and tolerant than conservatives. Their fear of aiding the undeserving is outweighed by their fear not helping the truly needy . . . Liberals do not need to bolster their self-esteem by living in a stratified society in which they can claim superiority over this or that group . . . Finally, liberals do not blame the victim or make defensive attributions . . . Liberals acknowledge that fate can be capricious and that bad things happen to good people."

2. Flattering conservative portrait:

"Conservatives realize the importance of incentives and that no, or little, aid is often the best help of all. The conservative response to social problems avoids the simplistic first response of treating the symptom by creating a new and expensive government program . . . conservatives are more integratively complex than liberals because they understand how often well-intentioned political reforms have unintended consequences or perverse effects . . . Finally, conservatives understand how free markets work, [they] recognize that the invisible hand of free market competition leads in the long term to incentives to produce good at levels of quality and quantity that satisfy effective demand for those goods."

3. Unflattering liberal portrait:

"They practice, in effect, a kind of social homeopathic medicine that treats symptoms rather than underlying causes . . . They fail to take into account the growing burden on the economy and the perverse incentives that dependency on public programs creates . . . Liberals not only exaggerate the efficacy of government; they underestimate the creativity of the free market. Many liberals mindlessly condemn capitalism as a culture of greed and ignore the power of the market to stimulate hard work, investment and entrepreneurship . . . [Liberalism] is a reflection of the widespread 'psychology of dependency' in which government, by transference, takes on the role of nurturant, powerful parent."

4. Unflattering conservative portrait:

"[C]onservatives do not understand how prevalent situational constraints on achievement are and thus commit the fundamental attribution error when they hold the poor responsible for poverty . . . [C]onservatives are too prone to engage in zero-sum thinking, either I keep my money or the government takes it. They fail to appreciate the possibility of positive-sum resolutions of societal conflicts . . . Conservatives cling to the comforting moral illusion that there is a sharp distinction between allowing people to suffer and making people suffer. Finally, conservatives fail to recognize that even if each transaction in a free market meets their standards of fairness, the cumulative result could be colossally unfair. Some people will acquire enormous power over others . . . [C]onservatism and compassion are antithetical." 29



https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2012/02/studies-conservatives-are-from-mars-liberals-are-from-venus/252416/
Click to expand...

Btw, those points/counterpoints are a very nice (albeit overly-simplistic) explanation of why I feel the way I do. All four points all resonate almost perfectly with how I feel.
 
Dr. Jones said:
Btw, those points/counterpoints are a very nice (albeit overly-simplistic) explanation of why I feel the way I do. All four points all resonate almost perfectly with how I feel.
Click to expand...

And I have to admit I do tend to look at government as something nurturing, as a powerful parent. I don't like seeing people fall through the cracks. I would rather accept a freeloader abusing the system then see someone in need fall through the cracks, so to speak. If I have to put up with freeloaders to help those in need, it seems that that is the direction in which I tend to go.

My wife is as apolitical as anyone I've ever known, but she's conservative by temperament. I just can't tell her that without her resenting having a label attached to her. But I see that our arguments over the Syrian refugee crisis is an argument between liberal and conservative views. She sees the danger to Europe, and insists the flood of refugees must go elsewhere. I'm always arguing that if they could escape elsewhere, they would. In the meantime I can't see locking the gates and watching them starve. But, of course, my wife is not a monster who wants to see them starve at all. But she is willing to keep them all out rather then let in a few terrorists.

And no surprise, this is the very conservative-liberal conflict currently besetting Europe.
 
Red said:
And I have to admit I do tend to look at government as something nurturing, as a powerful parent. I don't like seeing people fall through the cracks. I would rather accept a freeloader abusing the system then see someone in need fall through the cracks, so to speak. If I have to put up with freeloaders to help those in need, it seems that that is the direction in which I tend to go.

My wife is as apolitical as anyone I've ever known, but she's conservative by temperament. I just can't tell her that without her resenting having a label attached to her. But I see that our arguments over the Syrian refugee crisis is an argument between liberal and conservative views. She sees the danger to Europe, and insists the flood of refugees must go elsewhere. I'm always arguing that if they could escape elsewhere, they would. In the meantime I can't see locking the gates and watching them starve. But, of course, my wife is not a monster who wants to see them starve at all. But she is willing to keep them all out rather then let in a few terrorists.

And no surprise, this is the very conservative-liberal conflict currently besetting Europe.
Click to expand...

What's truly frustrating is how we (as people) can't simply accept that there is no easy answer to many of life's difficult challenges and differences of opinions does not a monster make (as you said).
We should work together to find responsible solutions rather than plant our feet firmly and argue while the hurts continue.
 
Dr. Jones said:
What's truly frustrating is how we (as people) can't simply accept that there is no easy answer to many of life's difficult challenges and differences of opinions does not a monster make (as you said).
We should work together to find responsible solutions rather than plant our feet firmly and argue while the hurts continue.
Click to expand...

Seems like belief systems of many stripes, not just liberal vs. conservative, have been obstacles to more responsible cooperation for as long as humans have been human. Hopefully we'll grow up someday.
 
Red said:
And I have to admit I do tend to look at government as something nurturing, as a powerful parent.
Click to expand...
This sentence really jumps out at me. Not only is it not what I want from government, I actually have a strong negative reaction to it. I do not want to be parented or nurtured by government, and I don't think people should look to their government as a caretaker. If I was to construct a similar sentence it would be something like this: Our government's role is to keep our nation secure and to make and administer reasonable laws. Given this (and assuming that my view is somewhat representative of conservatives and that yours is of liberals), no wonder we see so many things differently. We aren't even envisioning a government that needs to accomplish the same things.
 
Joe Bagadonuts said:
This sentence really jumps out at me. Not only is it not what I want from government, I actually have a strong negative reaction to it. I do not want to be parented or nurtured by government, and I don't think people should look to their government as a caretaker. If I was to construct a similar sentence it would be something like this: Our government's role is to keep our nation secure and to make and administer reasonable laws. Given this (and assuming that my view is somewhat representative of conservatives and that yours is of liberals), no wonder we see so many things differently. We aren't even envisioning a government that needs to accomplish the same things.
Click to expand...

I don't know if I'm a typical liberal, because I really never thought much about "what I am". But I would say that I am nurturing, and I guess I'm looking for a reflection of myself in the greater world. There has to be some entity that helps people in need. Who takes in refugees? Government just seems to have the most resources to help. Maybe I want government to overcome the law of the jungle. I'm not sure; I'll have to think about this. Maybe I've been wrong my entire life, I don't know....
 
I think "conservative" in America means people who believe in keeping our Constitutional form of government, and respecting our human rights.

"Liberal" has been hijacked by globalist advocacy to mean the opposite of the general old meaning: a "Liberal" is somebody who really wants to control you. As in govern you, essential the opposite of democratic governance.
 
Scat said:
"Government is not the solution to our problem government IS the problem" ~ Reagan
Click to expand...


"That government is best which governs the least, because its people discipline themselves," This quote is attributed to Jefferson, but in fact he never said any such thing.
 
It occurs to me that I may expect government to actually love it's citizens. Which makes me a fool. Government is an abstraction. Might as well expect the rocks lining my driveway to be nurturing. If I'm expecting government to somehow act to uphold the Golden Rule, then I'm crazy. In fact, I'm probably not a typical liberal at all. I'm living in a fantasy world that has no, and never will have, any basis in reality. This father figure I'm looking for does not exist in the real world. I'm beginning to wonder if it's a theocracy I want, lol, and I have not practiced any faith at all in nearly 60 years.
 
Scat said:
"Government is not the solution to our problem government IS the problem" ~ Reagan
Click to expand...
Wasn't reagan like part of the government or something?
 
fishonjazz said:
Ya. Kinda hypocritical too maybe.
Click to expand...

Haha, as if he didn't know he was part of government?
I get the humor, and I should just laugh along, but I do appreciate when someone can humbly admit they are part of the problem and bring it to light in an attempt to do better.
 
Dr. Jones said:
Haha, as if he didn't know he was part of government?
I get the humor, and I should just laugh along, but I do appreciate when someone can humbly admit they are part of the problem and bring it to light in an attempt to do better.
Click to expand...
He admits he is part of the problem and then declares war (an un-winnable one at that) on a huge population of his own people? (War on drugs was reagans big thing iirc)

Seems kind of dumb to me.
 
fishonjazz said:
He admits he is part of the problem and then declares war (an un-winnable one at that) on a huge population of his own people? (War on drugs was reagans big thing iirc)

Seems kind of dumb to me.
Click to expand...
A war on drugs may be an unwinnable one, but it's hard to suggest it isn't a noble one.

If one's most damning bit of rep is that of a failed yet noble attempt, I consider that person a champ.
 
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