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Coronavirus

Exponentially wrong? What in the holy hell are you talking about? We’re at 84,000+ deaths. We’re at 900+ on the day with 25 states, 3 territories and other entities still to report. Over 11,000 new cases today with all those states still to report. Numbers are going down. In NY. They’re basically going up in the rest of the country. Trump himself last week said to expect 3,000 deaths a day by June 1.

And all this despite restrictions over the last seven to eight weeks. But yes, hospitals are empty. Like wtf are you even talking about?

And give it another 10-15 days. All those states who opened up. Forget about it. The numbers should be worse there than they are today.

It’s not like, “Hey! Only 84,000 deaths, not one or two million like that moron Fauci said.” The game’s not over yet. Hell, the first quarter might not be over yet.

Yes. Exponentially wrong.


Millions (plural) of deaths predicted, with intervention.

I am aware that this thing isn't over, but we aren't going to get close to that number and you know it.

And yes, the hospitals being open is important. Why? We were told we had to stay at home so we don't overwhelm hospitals, which would cause more deaths. We did that. Hospitals are laying people off now, because there's no traffic. So now it's turned into, "stay at home until there's a vaccine" or "stay at home until there's more testing", or "stay at home until this is all over". The goalposts keep moving. We're at over 30 million unemployed. 100,000 small businesses have permanently closed. Some reports say that if this continues, up to 7.5 million small business could permanently close. At what point do we have to say enough is enough? That's what I'm trying to get at! At what point Wesley?

24 and under, you're more likely to get struck by lightning than die of Corona. 54 and under, 0.0046% chance of death from Corona. I'll take those odds. Almost 40% of deaths are from nursing homes. That's relatively easy to manage. The elderly should be in a stay at home. Everybody else? Idk...

I think with what we know, it's reasonable to give people the CHOICE to return to work. The CHOICE to go out to eat. The CHOICE to go to church. The CHOICE to stay home.

I get that it's really nice for some people to stay at home, collect money for not working, play video games all day, but that isn't sustainable and will end up hurting the country long term. There isn't an easy answer, but I do think some discussion between "OPEN EVERYTHING UP NOW" and "WE GOTTA STAY HOME FOR A CURE" is good.
 
You’re choosing to say plural. Fauci said 1-2M. Not 2M with 100% certainty. Obviously it’s a wide margin like that because he can’t predict what Trump and governors will declare or how well citizens will adhere to what is declared or listen to scientific experts like himself and social distance based on their own belief of such science and what’s happening around them.

It should also be noted that many people have come forward saying the numbers are being underreported. That there may be in fact thousands who’ve died but did not count toward the tally because they were never tested.

So far as being exponentially off, I find you to be wrong. If we’re going by the strict definition of exponential, it’s wrong period. But even if we’re loosening up the term, I think you’ll still be wrong. We’re at about 85,000 deaths. Given where we seem to be headed, I’m guessing we’ll be at about 140,000 deaths in a month. And then it continues on. With no distinct end necessarily in sight.

Listen, I too get the unemployment stance. It’s a very real and serious threat to our existence in a much different way. I’ve already criticized much of the left for being ignorant to that reality. However, to shout out that Fauci was exponentially off at this stage in the game is wrong. We just don’t know at this point.
 
The reason our death count is higher than anywhere else in the world is simple: Americans are shallow, insecure and can't be bothered to do anything differently when they're only concerned about what affects them. Receiving mixed messages from leadership on a daily basis adds to the bewilderment. We eschew science in favor of gut feelings and discredit those whom we don't agree with.

Hope isn't a strategy, but that's the strategy this country seems to be running with. Re-opening the economy and saving lives is entirely possible in tandem as other countries are showing us, but in an election year, both parties are really leaning into what helps them win more seats and power in November.

But Trump is the home team here and should have the advantage of leading the charge - and is fumbling badly. The gaslighting of Fauci and anyone who resists is in full swing.

No true self-proclaimed patriot of this country could so easily offer up our elderly and at risk just to make a buck and serve four more years. Makes all those words written on the Statue of Liberty about giving us your tired, your weak, your poor and homeless just a bunch of bull-****.
 
Hospitals are laying people off now, because there's no traffic.

The lack of traffic is from the cancellation of elective procedures and and delaying what could have been delayed. Areas hit by the virus have seen sections of their hospitals over whelmed even while other sections were empty; not every ward can be converted into an ICU.

I agree there needs to a conversation about what to open and when, and we can't stay locked down forever. On the other hand, the local drive-in just re-opened here in Illinois (one of the states harder hit, where Pritzker imposed a a ock down on the more severe side than many places), so I would say this conversation is always underway.
 
I'm not yelling at Fauci. Initial models with limited data are expected to be wrong. I've honestly got no issue with Fauci. He's done a good job.

What bothers me, is that the goalposts keep moving. The data has changed, but we're not changing with it.
 
Yes. Exponentially wrong.


Millions (plural) of deaths predicted, with intervention.

I am aware that this thing isn't over, but we aren't going to get close to that number and you know it.

And yes, the hospitals being open is important. Why? We were told we had to stay at home so we don't overwhelm hospitals, which would cause more deaths. We did that. Hospitals are laying people off now, because there's no traffic. So now it's turned into, "stay at home until there's a vaccine" or "stay at home until there's more testing", or "stay at home until this is all over". The goalposts keep moving. We're at over 30 million unemployed. 100,000 small businesses have permanently closed. Some reports say that if this continues, up to 7.5 million small business could permanently close. At what point do we have to say enough is enough? That's what I'm trying to get at! At what point Wesley?

24 and under, you're more likely to get struck by lightning than die of Corona. 54 and under, 0.0046% chance of death from Corona. I'll take those odds. Almost 40% of deaths are from nursing homes. That's relatively easy to manage. The elderly should be in a stay at home. Everybody else? Idk...

I think with what we know, it's reasonable to give people the CHOICE to return to work. The CHOICE to go out to eat. The CHOICE to go to church. The CHOICE to stay home.

I get that it's really nice for some people to stay at home, collect money for not working, play video games all day, but that isn't sustainable and will end up hurting the country long term. There isn't an easy answer, but I do think some discussion between "OPEN EVERYTHING UP NOW" and "WE GOTTA STAY HOME FOR A CURE" is good.
We're stuck in a situation where our bias is to favor intervention because it allays a number of our unconscious anxieties. This is a common bias that drives a lot of healthcare decisions, but it's not specific to healthcare and is fairly broadly applicable to many facets of life and society. But when applied to healthcare specifically, it certainly has numerous consequences that often aren't perceived by our conscious evaluations (this is true elsewhere, too). I'll occasionally have medical residents or medical students with me and this is often a large point I try to emphasize. Medical training is often very intervention-focused. It requires larger contexts to be able to tolerate the anxiety to goes along with "doing nothing." The example I generally give is that of whether or not you should anti-coagulate (provide blood thinners to) someone with atrial fibrillation. It's a fairly simple and not-too-uncommon scenario that can be applicable to many other decisions. Atrial fibrillation is an arrhythmia that can lead to pooling of blood that may make one more likely to develop clots that then can pass out of the heart and, for instance, create an ischemic stroke in the brain. But putting someone on a blood thinner comes at it's own risks (risk of bleeding). The reason I use this scenario is because it's easier for people to put themselves in the shoes of someone making a decision on whether or not to anticoagulate a patient. When this hypothetical patient comes in, you will weigh out the risks vs. the benefits and ultimately arrive at some decision. A rhetorical question is posed about potential adverse outcomes of each decision. In the event that you decide to anticoagulate, the patient ends up having a fall, has a brain bleed, ends up on a ventilator in an ICU for 2 weeks, then dies. Nobody wants a patient to die, but the anxiety about this is assuaged by reassurances that one took a calculated risk to help an individual, and that this, while unpleasant, is part of a risk that was taken. The second scenario is that this same patient comes to clinic and a decision is made to not anticoagulate. This patient then ends up having a massive stroke, ends up on a ventilator in an ICU for two weeks, then dies. The subjective experience of the healthcare provider who participated in the decision is generally quite different in each of these scenarios, but in reality each scenario required a calculated risk that has no guarantees. As a general trend, there would be much more anxiety (guilt or second-guessing) in the individual that had an adverse outcomes related to withholding intervention rather than those who had an adverse outcome by providing an intervention. The second is much more likely to wonder "I could have saved this person, why did I do nothing?" But the first is reassured that their actions to intervene is evidence of actively attempting help a patient (and evidence of caring), and the insecurities one may feel is much more effectively mitigated than in the alternative scenario where they may feel that they should have been more proactive.

We're at a similar junction as a society. It's much easier on the psyche to tolerate indirect deaths that result from active measures that we're taking. It's much more psychologically distressing to our society to feel like deaths have happened because we feel that we allowed them to. When we collectively have these emotional biases, it facilitates us tolerating decisions that may not actually be better for the collective good, but is much more effective at pacifying our anxieties about current crises.
 
We obviously can't shut everything down for 12-18 months while we wait for a vaccine nor can we simply not re-open low-risk parts of our country and operations. Keep in mind there's no federal plan for this, just up to the states to do what feels right. Also keep in mind that other countries are already doing this with proven results.

The goalposts for any success were obliterated long ago. Remember, back in January, we were told everything would be fine. In February, it was going to magically disappear in April like some sort of miracle. In March, we might only have 40k deaths when it was going to be 2 million. And so on and so forth.

The administration took all funding, risk management plans and documentation for pandemics and threw it in the trash to save money and feed their base of draining the swamp of non-essential services. Still seem like that was the right move to anyone now?
 
"Shut down so hospitals aren't overrun."

Okay done.

"Shut down until we know more."

Well...wait? How much more?

"Shut down until we find a vaccine."

Who are the government officials calling for a shut down until a vaccine is found? I don't know of any.
 
Lol

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It’s typically easier to argue against the argument you hope people are making rather than the actual argument that they’re making.
 
So what does a reopening look like to you?

I really think that depends on the state. Obviously what works in North Dakota may not work in New York.

I think Florida, Georgia, and Colorado are fairly good examples of populated states that have opened up with good success. Obviously more time will tell, but so far, so good. As far as lesser populated states, the Dakota's, Wyoming, Montana, those are good examples as well. There is no one size fits all here.
 
That quote in itself doesn't advocate for a complete shutdown. Completely open is business as usual - sporting events, concerts, giant orgies, etc., basically mass gatherings.

Here's what he's really advocating for and it doesn't sound like a complete shutdown to me:

https://losangeles.cbslocal.com/2020/05/13/coronavirus-garcetti-los-angeles-reopening/

And if the cure or vaccine never happens? You think we won't have concerts again? Won't have fans in stadiums again?

It was a stupid statement of him to make.
 
And if the cure or vaccine never happens? You think we won't have concerts again? Won't have fans in stadiums again?

It was a stupid statement of him to make.

I just don't see it as a stupid statement honestly. We'll have concerts and live sporting events and a return back to normalcy as life goes by as this virus will be the death of some of us but not all of us, but what venue, artist, team, etc. is going to subject their fans in this environment? As the risk diminishes, we'll be able to do this even if it means having 10k fans in a 50k capacity stadium to start with. We can come up with ways to have events safely and minimize risk.

We'll have a vaccine - the world is full of too many brilliant minds for us not to. When is the only real question and I think we can all agree that we hope it's sooner than later.
 
I just don't see it as a stupid statement honestly. We'll have concerts and live sporting events and a return back to normalcy as life goes by as this virus will be the death of some of us but not all of us, but what venue, artist, team, etc. is going to subject their fans in this environment? As the risk diminishes, we'll be able to do this even if it means having 10k fans in a 50k capacity stadium to start with. We can come up with ways to have events safely and minimize risk.

We'll have a vaccine - the world is full of too many brilliant minds for us not to. When is the only real question and I think we can all agree that we hope it's sooner than later.

That's a fair point. I'm more just arguing I think people should have the option to choose for themselves if they want to stay home or not. And I know not everyone will agree with me, and that's okay. You bring up good points though. Thank you!

And I agree on a vaccine. I'm hopeful, but we shall see. I just don't like politicians making definitive statements like that.
 
That's a fair point. I'm more just arguing I think people should have the option to choose for themselves if they want to stay home or not. And I know not everyone will agree with me, and that's okay. You bring up good points though. Thank you!

And I agree on a vaccine. I'm hopeful, but we shall see. I just don't like politicians making definitive statements like that.

I would agree with you that we should let people make up their own minds and define their risk tolerance. We're all adults and responsible for our own lives; my issue has been that messaging has been inconsistent and that's leading to unnecessary strife. We shouldn't be hearing stories of people being hurt or killed for wearing or not wearing masks, TV heads shaming scientists and being told to stay in your home or be arrested/fined. None of that gets any of us closer to what we all need: a blooming economy, prosperous job market and 401k's that let us know that all these years of the grind will pay off.

COVID-19 should never have been looked at as a political opportunity, but that's how our leaders on both sides of the aisle have defined it. And as Americans, we all suffer for it.
 
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