Coronavirus

[Saint Cy of JFC]

And there's a fairly big difference between that being a natural response vs. leaning into it. For instance, "because the government waited [a few days], millions of people will die." There's also a term that was oft-repeated that you don't hear anymore, "it didn't have to be like this."

ETA: oh, and the idea that Red brings up of people being skeptical about government who's "trying their best" didn't seem to apply to "they delayed and millions will die as a result" or the calls of every governor who didn't ______ (implement mask mandate, shut down sooner, mandate whatever). That seems to be an aptly appropriate reason to criticize government and not say "oh, well they're doing their best."

I get what you're saying and agree to an extent, but people just want to bitch and complain and have something to be against.

Like if the gov said thousands instead of millions, I dont think it would have caused that much of a difference in the perception from those who are so against it.

 

[fishonjazz]

Not only implies, but outright states that masks had a measurable benefit prior to Delta. They did. The protection they offered wasn't perfect but it was something and every little bit helped. Then COVID started to evolve to become more transmissible. That transmissiblity isn't only a measure of how effective a pathogen is at evading the immune system but is instead a measure of how effective a pathogen is at evading everything including masks. COVID doesn't hang in the air as a virus all by itself, but is instead contained in a tiny droplet of water. As COVID has evolved, it has been able to be suspended by ever smaller droplets. The modern variants are able to suspend in droplets so tiny that N95 masks don't stop them and the droplets are so light that they stay aloft forever. It is an evolutionary advantage that has outcompeted the original COVID to the point that no one gets sick from the original type any more but it also has made ineffective some of the countermeasures, like masks, that used to be beneficial against the early strains.

We know this because we have data. Some try to explain away the data, as in Red's pieces above, but it is always the same song and dance. "Um...sure the data shows a lack of effectiveness but that is because everyone is wearing masks wrong and masks themselves are totally effective but we can't prove it against modern variants so look at this old study that showed the effectiveness of masks against earlier strains."

If wearing a mask gives you piece of mind, then wear a mask. If you think masking is silly then don't wear one. Either way, with modern variants, your odds of getting COVID are the same. There are certain items and routines I hold to have some power of luckiness when it comes to my kid's athletic events even though my logical mind knows they don't change the laws of physics, statistics, or random chance but come playoff time they are there always. I get it. You do you.

Ooooohhhhhhh but how can you trust the data? Dont know who is paying for the data right? What kind of agenda they have right? Also, you say with modern variants odds are the same. Yet you dont know if my co worker is the first to get a brand new variant that a mask would be extra extra good against.

 

[fishonjazz]

As I stated on March 16, 2020, this would be a consequence of immediately appealing to scare tactics and political division to enhance adherence. And note here that none of these arguments were post hoc but rather all a priori as March 16th was the day "15 days to slow the spread" [a post hoc misnomer of the century] was announced.

From your post: It's better to be cautious than be sorry, but if you feel people aren't taking something serious enough, simply ratcheting up the fear isn't actually going to change those peoples' behaviors, and in fact may drive them the other way. But you yourself may feel better, even though you have not helped with any change. Try a different approach, because I'd like everyone to be more cautious, too, and I recognize that your behavior "helping" isn't really accomplishing that.

What is the different approach that would make people be more cautious?

 

[Red]

In the day and era, in which we live, I am not surprised that the default response, for many, may be “pandemics are an opportunity absolutely ripe for central governments in nation states to lean more authoritarian in tone, and policy, stripping citizens of their rights and freedoms”. I’m not at all surprised, and I should think, nobody should be surprised, unless one were living under a rock in our recent history, that such interpretations are prevalent in an era rife with disinformation, alternative facts, and actually, rejection of received wisdom and authority in many eras of human knowledge: in history/prehistory and the explosion of pseudoarchaeology, science in general, with scientists pegged as “elites that cannot be trusted”, in medicine, obviously, in religion, in virtually all areas where “experts” exist, but must not be trusted. If one thinks this overall development is not playing a role in “the dumbing down of citizens”, and is part of the psychological and cultural substrate that encourages rejection of “authoritative sources”, well, I just think one would not be paying attention.

This is not to say that any and all criticisms of the response of governments, government agencies, and medical science toward the Covid pandemic are worthless. To a large degree, however, I believe it’s likely more people died due to listening to misinformation. I do not know to what degree something similar happened in 1918, be interesting to look into, there must have been some conspiratorial thoughts by some at that time.

Anyway, really just pointing out some of the trends, now, in the present era, that are conducive to rejection of “received wisdom” and “expert authority”. Those trends are a part of the rejection response to government actions in the pandemic, because many are conditioned now to respond that way. And really, I’ve been wary of the dangers of “alternative facts” all around anyway. Reason why I felt the Big Lie was so damaging. Hard to remove severe distrust once it’s taken hold. But I’m not saying don’t examine anything, don’t think for yourself, don’t use your discriminating intelligence, etc….

 

[fishonjazz]

Again a mask being better than nothing just seems like common sense and logic to me. It's a barrier between your inhalations and exhalations. If one of the ways the virus gets into the body is via the mouth when we inhale then having a barrier there would be better than nothing.
It's like trump wall. Most of the people he wanted to stop from coming to America weren't coming to America where he put the wall. And those who wanted to come in through that wall could use ladders to climb over, could dig under, or cut/break through.
But it was still a barrier and my common sense and logic would tell me that it would stop some people

 

[Al-O-Meter]

Ooooohhhhhhh but how can you trust the data? Dont know who is paying for the data right? What kind of agenda they have right?

Usually it is easy to see. If my local school district is touting the opinion of an expert they have under contract who happens to be saying the school district's actions were justified, I don't take that any differently than my local school district's legal expert, whom they have paid to be their lawyer, saying the school district's actions were justified.

Trump's lawyers say he is innocent and his acts were justified. Do you believe them? They are legal experts.

Paid experts will say all kinds of stuff for their clients. With regards to judging the data coming from studies related to COVID, I am married to a scientist in a related field. I know her agenda and her level of competence.

 

[fishonjazz]

Usually it is easy to see. If my local school district is touting the opinion of an expert they have under contract who happens to be saying the school district's actions were justified, I don't take that any differently than my local school district's legal expert, whom they have paid to be their lawyer, saying the school district's actions were justified.

Trump's lawyers say he is innocent. Do you believe them? They are legal experts.

Paid experts will say all kinds of stuff for their clients. With regards to judging the data coming from studies related to COVID, I am married to a scientist in a related field. I know her agenda and her level of competence.

The fact you are married to her lets me know her agenda as well. Thanks for the admission.

 

[Al-O-Meter]

I am not surprised that the default response, for many, may be “pandemics are an opportunity absolutely ripe for central governments in nation states to lean more authoritarian in tone, and policy, stripping citizens of their rights and freedoms”. I’m not at all surprised, and I should think, nobody should be surprised, unless one were living under a rock in our recent history, that such interpretations are prevalent in an era rife with disinformation, alternative facts, and actually, rejection of received wisdom and authority in many eras of human knowledge: in history/prehistory and the explosion of pseudoarchaeology, science in general, with scientists pegged as “elites that cannot be trusted”, in medicine, obviously, in religion, in virtually all areas where “experts” exist, but must not be trusted. If one thinks this overall development is not playing a role in “the dumbing down of citizens”, and is part of the psychological and cultural substrate that encourages rejection of “authoritative sources”, well, I just think one would not be paying attention.

Trump's lawyers say he is innocent and his acts were justified. Do you believe them? They are legal experts.

 

[fishonjazz]

I actually think the government/health officials SHOULD lie to us about how bad it was in the beginning. I appreciate that. They are lacking in info and data. So I think its appropriate to over exaggerate how bad it is. I know at the beginning of the pandemic I was way more scared than necessary. Due to my fear (and other fears) I wasn't letting my family come over for my daughters birthday party or easter etc. Places were shut down. Kids were missing school. Masks were being worn by many. My dad just had his 80th birthday last week. Maybe he is dead right now if the government was like "there is a virus out there and some people are getting sick and some are even dying but its really not that bad and there is no need for any drastic measures. A mask could help but isn't really necessary. Social distancing might be a good idea but you do you. We certainly wont be shutting down any businesses or schools for something resembling the common flu"

I also know some people who never took it seriously and who died early on from covid. They didn't trust the governments fear mongering. Maybe they would be alive today if the government said "there is a virus out there and some people are getting sick and some are even dying but its really not that bad and there is no need for any drastic measures. A mask could help but isn't really necessary. Social distancing might be a good idea but you do you. We certainly wont be shutting down any businesses or schools for something resembling the common flu" because then they would have masked up and social distanced and been very afraid of covid. I doubt it though.

 

[Red]

I don’t understand how distrust in government and agencies, and reliance on falsehoods, helped save lives. The entire reflex, not the entire population, but the broad reaction that might be summarized as “don’t trust them, don’t listen to them. Ignore Fauci, do not get vaccinated!!!!”, how exactly did that save lives? I thought, during a global pandemic, that the central government should lead the way, and that the goal was to save lives. Instead, a broad response blaming the government for acting to minimize the loss of life, as if they were not even supposed to try….

Fauci criticizes 'extreme' ideological divide that has led to disproportionate Covid deaths among Republicans

The president's outgoing chief medical adviser told NBC News it was “unconscionable” that some people did not get vaccinated “based on political ideology.”

www.nbcnews.com

 

[fishonjazz]

Another great thing about masks is that they work even if they don't work at all.
When a co worker is wearing a mask at work it's an advertisement that he/she is sick! Could be COVID, could be the flu or just a cold but regardless I try to distance myself from them and spray alcohol on the computer keyboard, and chair armrests, and equipment that is used by everyone in my department. Which helps me to not get sick.

 

[Red]

Trump's lawyers say he is innocent and his acts were justified. Do you believe them? They are legal experts.

I don’t think you understand what I was talking about, which was clearly trends toward rejection of authoritative sources in the modern era. Not sure which charges you would be referring to here; however, to this point in time I have not closely examined his attorney’s arguments in any of the cases brought against Trump. Nor do I see the relevance to the trends I was pointing out, which is why I did not think you understood my drift. Which was trends in our recent….CULTURAL….history. Which is fine, you don’t have to.