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Douchebag K said:
so given the plethora of ACTUAL EVIDENCE that pertains to the ability of the Covid vaccines to prevent infections or transmission of Covid 19 and the fact that the CDC have now removed any conditions differentiating the vaccinated from the unvaccinated as well as statements coming thick and fast from all manner of authorities keen to shift the goal posts that the vaccines aren't any good at said prevention of infection or transmission .... I'm curious if any of those vehemently pro vaccine mandates on a moral basis are intellectually honest enough to have changed their mind .. even partially ??
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Im still glad I got vaccinated and will continue to get boosters.
 
Douchebag K said:
what i'm talking about is the basis on which people who didn't want to get vaccinated have been villified, bullied, asked to give up their livelihood etc etc based on the assumption that taking a Covid vaccine meant you wouldn't get or more to the point transmit Covid to the most vulnerable. The "pandemic of the unvaccinated" The reason for feeling ok about shunning and locking people out of society. This whole line of moral superiority and expecting others to make the same decision ... this seems to have fallen by the wayside rather quickly as government authorities all round the world, heck even the drug manufacturers now admit that the Covid vaccines haven't performed as advertised.

anyone who vouched for the "if only everyone got vaccinated the pandemic would end" had pause for thought ?? Anybody regret the way they've treated others as a result of this line of thinking ???
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Well from what I remember at the time of the "pandemic or the unvaccinated" that is what it was. They were tracking hospital admittance via vaccinated vs unvaccinated and pretty much all the people getting hospitalized and dying were unvaccinated. So at the time it seemed like, and in fact was, a good idea to get vaccinated if you didn't like to die or stay in the hospital. Potency of the vaccine changes over time, the virus mutates and things change, no doubt.
 
12.5 BILLION doses of the covid vaccine have been administered world wide. 4.9 BILLION people are fully vaccinated. Maybe that helped get things opened up and hospitals to not be so full like they once were. Thats a lot of freaking shots!

Would be interesting to know if instead of 12.5 billion shots there were zero what the world would look like today. Im glad the vaccine got created, Im glad i got vaccinated and boosted (I have yet to test positive for covid or even be sick enough to miss work since covid showed up. I have had 100% attendance record over the last few years. Maybe if i didn't get the covid vaccine that wouldn't be the case), and Im glad the vaccine was pushed as much as it was which most likely caused more people to get it.
 
fishonjazz said:
12.5 BILLION doses of the covid vaccine have been administered world wide. 4.9 BILLION people are fully vaccinated. Maybe that helped get things opened up and hospitals to not be so full like they once were. Thats a lot of freaking shots!

Would be interesting to know if instead of 12.5 billion shots there were zero what the world would look like today. Im glad the vaccine got created, Im glad i got vaccinated and boosted (I have yet to test positive for covid or even be sick enough to miss work since covid showed up. I have had 100% attendance record over the last few years. Maybe if i didn't get the covid vaccine that wouldn't be the case), and Im glad the vaccine was pushed as much as it was which most likely caused more people to get it.
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If the conspiracy theories are correct, 4.9B people are supposed to be dying anytime soon as part of the Bill Gates New World Order. I'm not sure if it's a slow, painful death or our heads explode simultaneously, but I bet it might make the news either way.
 
Gameface said:
Because my position had nothing to do with absolute effectiveness of the vaccine or nothing and it wasn't based on speculating about what we may know in the future. It was based on the information available at the time. Getting the vaccine was and is the right thing to do if you want to benefit from living in a society.

Your entire premise here is dumb as ****.
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cool i'll mark you down in the intellectually dishonest category because in your own words your position had "nothing to do with the effectiveness of the vaccine" That's been pretty clear.
 
fishonjazz said:
Well from what I remember at the time of the "pandemic or the unvaccinated" that is what it was. They were tracking hospital admittance via vaccinated vs unvaccinated and pretty much all the people getting hospitalized and dying were unvaccinated. So at the time it seemed like, and in fact was, a good idea to get vaccinated if you didn't like to die or stay in the hospital. Potency of the vaccine changes over time, the virus mutates and things change, no doubt.
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at least you're honest enough to admit it your view was based on "what it seemed"

The problem is the data was being collected in real time. It hadn't been studied properly for either efficacy nor potential side effects
 
fishonjazz said:
12.5 BILLION doses of the covid vaccine have been administered world wide. 4.9 BILLION people are fully vaccinated. Maybe that helped get things opened up and hospitals to not be so full like they once were. Thats a lot of freaking shots!

Would be interesting to know if instead of 12.5 billion shots there were zero what the world would look like today. Im glad the vaccine got created, Im glad i got vaccinated and boosted (I have yet to test positive for covid or even be sick enough to miss work since covid showed up. I have had 100% attendance record over the last few years. Maybe if i didn't get the covid vaccine that wouldn't be the case), and Im glad the vaccine was pushed as much as it was which most likely caused more people to get it.
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dude seriously ... it doesn't bother you that a lot of this is "maybe" ?? Do you think a bunch of "maybe" things justify forcing people who are perfectly healthy to take a new unproven medication that they don't want to that can have ???
 
One Brow said:
Maybe you didn't read the same CDC document I linked to, and are referring to something else. Because that document makes it very clear that we were only able to get to this state by achieving a massive program of vaccination, and isolation/distancing until the vaccinations were sufficiently in place. Now that the situation on the ground has changed, public health advice has adjusted. It's what I had been hoping for these past 2.5 years.

If I ever said I thought the pandemic would end (as opposed to becoming endemic), I was naive and wrong. I don't recall saying that or believing that, but I'm often not good at remembering what I used to believe.
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not you in those exact terms but there were certainly several simpletons who i usually ignore who said that in very specific terms I'm not basing my view on that CDC report, my view is on continually reading published papers and data and continual statements from authorities who were very much pushing the whole "get vaccinated so you don't catch or transmit Covid" in those exact terms "pandemic of the unvaccinated" etc who are now quite clearly and casually stating that the vaccines don't work well at ALL for those purposes.

Does someone like you not recognise that a lot of the data interpretation contained so much noise as to be unscientific to draw a lot of the definitive conclusions that have been used ? How do we know the pandemic might not have wavered up and down and got to this point anyway ??? I don't know about there but in Australia a lot of the public health advice has been farcical and much more political than scientifically based.

The only mechanisms you can draw definitive proof from are double blind trials and these haven't been done. Yes we didn't have time but there were a lot of things that seemed apparent much earlier than what the authorities adjusted to.
 
Avery said:
If the conspiracy theories are correct, 4.9B people are supposed to be dying anytime soon as part of the Bill Gates New World Order. I'm not sure if it's a slow, painful death or our heads explode simultaneously, but I bet it might make the news either way.
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who said anything about conspiracy theories ?? I'm not talking about the nutters who think there's a tracking device and all those people are going to die. I'm talking about sensible reasoned reservations about everyone having to take the Covid vaccines across the board for a condition that is very much on mild side of the scale for a large percentage of the population
 
Douchebag K said:
at least you're honest enough to admit it your view was based on "what it seemed"

The problem is the data was being collected in real time. It hadn't been studied properly for either efficacy nor potential side effects
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Well i mean its pretty easy data. Someone checks into the hospital. They are asked if they are vaccinated or not. If way more say "not" then that seems pretty clear. I dont see why you would have to wait for more data. I think the vaccines were very effective at one point. Less effective at other points.
 
Interesting to see the responses. What i'm questioning are those who were so vehemently insistent that everyone must take it and those who didn't want to should be excluded from society, shunned, denied medical attention.

Let me be clear so i'm not misinterpreted. I was very excited when the vaccines were being developed and some of the early trial data. I've been very pro modern medicine. Even early in our vaccine rollout here i was a little uncomfortable with some of the rhetoric being used about a new medication and the lack of supporting data so i waited to get my first two shots until i basically had to because of a mandate as i am not in a high risk group. Was mostly ok doing it from the community point of view. However the numbers of "breakthrough" infections amongst the vaxxed and the lack of open discourse didn't make sense pretty soon after that and the suppression and denial of people who i'd known to have a couple of serious side effects caused me to become cynical pretty quickly. I have not seen any compelling evidence to support boosters again unless you're in a vulnerable category where it is then definitely worth it. So anyone older, frail and any pre existing medical conditions would be foolish to not get these vaxxes. Younger healthy people ?? ppfffttt Next to zero reason to. I've walked away from a few jobs that required mandated boosters. Both my teens chose to get the vaccines only so they wouldn't miss out on social events. Both have had Covid I have either had an asymptomatic infection or haven't had it although i'm exposed to a lot of people. Both my girls have experienced quite alarming differences in their periods follow vaccination. How has this not been studied properly before administering to young women on a wide scale ?

I've never seen government authorities responsible for "health" be so willfully misrepresentative. The lack of specificity for who should really consider taking the Covid vaccines is so negligent it beggars belief. This is not a one solution fits all problem. The fact that any doctor here giving patients exemptions to people for being vaxxed are threatened with being struck off the medical register is so alarming. The medical profession as a whole has taken a big hit to it's credibility.

I know some people who are still being denied their employment on the basis that if they're not booster they're somehow a risk to others. Even when they've previously had Covid and have natural immunity proven by bloodwork. Even though it's clear and has been for a long time that is just not true.


Just curious as to how many people, government authorities, health practitioners who pushed and continue to push things like vaccines for healthy young kids and younger adults and those who so strongly would have wanted to shut out healthy unvaccinated individuals have in retrospect considered whether they were just plain wrong to do so. And not because the "science shifted" or "goalposts moved" but that the science wasn't completed properly in the first place. I've certainly changed a lot of my initial views and sadly feel a lot more cynical.


I wish you all the very best of health
 
fishonjazz said:
Well i mean its pretty easy data. Someone checks into the hospital. They are asked if they are vaccinated or not. If way more say "not" then that seems pretty clear. I dont see why you would have to wait for more data. I think the vaccines were very effective at one point. Less effective at other points.
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you don't think there's a whole lot of other noise and factors around that data ??
 
Douchebag K said:
dude seriously ... it doesn't bother you that a lot of this is "maybe" ?? Do you think a bunch of "maybe" things justify forcing people who are perfectly healthy to take a new unproven medication that they don't want to that can have ???
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Yes i think that maybe can justify things. If me getting vaccinated might save someones, or my own, life then I think getting vaccinated is worth it. I knew a healthy and young man that died from covid. DIdn't get vaccinated. I bet his family wishes he would have gotten vaccinated even if it only "might" have saved his life.
 
fishonjazz said:
Yes i think that maybe can justify things. If me getting vaccinated might save someones, or my own, life then I think getting vaccinated is worth it. I knew a healthy and young man that died from covid. DIdn't get vaccinated. I bet his family wishes he would have gotten vaccinated even if it only "might" have saved his life.
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maybe maybe maybe Fair enough if thats your view, i respect that. I now don't agree that it's anywhere near that clear or simple
 
Douchebag K said:
you don't think there's a whole lot of other noise and factors around that data ??
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Nope. I go to the doctor for a covid infection. They ask if im vaccinated. I say yes or no. Not very noisy to me.
 
Douchebag K said:
well i would have thought that but i know a lot of doctors here who were too fearful to speak up and say what they really thought. So sadly unwavering trust in the medical system has really plummeted
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Ya its really trendy to not trust anything these days. Dont trust doctors or media or the government or cops. I dont really follow trends all that much.
 
fishonjazz said:
Ya its really trendy to not trust anything these days. Dont trust doctors or media or the government or cops. I dont really follow trends all that much.
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i have no idea what your point is other than you're happy to blindly trust what you're told. I was very much that way pre Covid.
 
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