Dame Time

[YoungJefe]

I would assume if it happens it would be a draft day deal and they would be taking our first two picks. Guaranteeing two of the picks are lottery or near lottery is a pretty good deal. Obviously there would be other compensation. I would also assume that only Kessler and Lauri are off the table player-wise.

Unfortunately outside of those two we really don't have any players outside of Agbaji that have a ton of trade value. Portland already has their own pick (should be lottery) and the Knicks pick this year, I don't see them wanting to bring in 4 rookies.

 

[gandalfe]

60 million EACH of the last two years right? So 120 milliom for tose last two years correct?
If thats true (its hard to believe its even true) then that is insane.


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[framer]

Unfortunately outside of those two we really don't have any players outside of Agbaji that have a ton of trade value. Portland already has their own pick (should be lottery) and the Knicks pick this year, I don't see them wanting to bring in 4 rookies.

You were the one insisting they would want young players. With four sub 20 picks, they should be able to consolidate for a better pick or sell a pick for future picks.

I'm having a hard time understanding why you are so butthurt that the Jazz might want to pursue Dame should he become available. Of course they would have that discussion and would be very interested in the guy that was rocking the Weber State jersey last week.

 

[YoungJefe]

You were the one insisting they would want young players. With four sub 20 picks, they should be able to consolidate for a better pick or sell a pick for future picks.

I'm having a hard time understanding why you are so butthurt that the Jazz might want to pursue Dame should he become available. Of course they would have that discussion and would be very interested in the guy that was rocking the Weber State jersey last week.

You guys are convinced that a small market team is going to trade away their top 15 franchise level player for scraps so they can have cap space.

I'm not butt hurt, I'm just realistic. I don't see how Dame to the Jazz makes sense for either side when we can't offer them any good young players / even with Dame we wouldn't be close to contention and would likely have to gut a good chunk of our premium draft assets. Danny literally just blew the team up because we had 2 stars without enough around them to contend and he'd immediately put us back in the same position with an older player that has a crazy contract?

That's cool that he wore a Weber State jersey during the 3P shootout and lived near SLC for a couple of years. Doesn't mean that we should trade for him.

 

[LogGrad98]

Who said championship?

I think the odds of being relevant with Donovan Mitchell are as good as being relevant with all these draft picks. There's no telling what can happen.

You can keep taking shots at crunch time, but he's still the best playoff performer we've had in a long time. It's too bad we built it all around some limited center instead of clearly a star.

So that's the problem, you're happy with relevance. Obviously the franchise is looking for a ring. Don wasn't going to get us there.

 

[infection]

So that's the problem, you're happy with relevance. Obviously the franchise is looking for a ring. Don wasn't going to get us there.

But what about the charisma? And the shoes? Not everything is about championships.


View: https://youtu.be/fgRFQJCHcPw

 

[YoungJefe]

So that's the problem, you're happy with relevance. Obviously the franchise is looking for a ring. Don wasn't going to get us there.

Trading the house for Dame would be the definition of looking to be relevant now while ignoring long term championship aspirations.

 

[FrenchJazzFa]

There is no way i put that amount of money on a 33 years old guys. Does not fit at all for me with the current strategy. Get a guys in the rangef of Lauri age and build around that. Lauri-Kessler-Sexton-X is a good start.

 

[Moonlight Graham]

Lillard is currently ranked third in FiveThirtyEight's offensive RAPTOR and fourth in overall RAPTOR and RAPTOR WAR. He's averaging career highs in PPG, TS%, and FTA per game. Sure seems like a guy with a whole lot left in the tank. If the asking price isn't outlandish, I think his contract would be worth the gamble.

 

[YoungJefe]

Lillard is currently ranked third in FiveThirtyEight's offensive RAPTOR and fourth in overall RAPTOR and RAPTOR WAR. He's averaging career highs in PPG, TS%, and FTA per game. Sure seems like a guy with a whole lot left in the tank. If the asking price isn't outlandish, I think his contract would be worth the gamble.

It's not even about now though, he's set to make $60M at age 36.

 

[Jingled]

Not sure I'd do it unless we could bring in another star to go alongside Dame and Lauri to create a big 3, similar to what Ainge did in Boston when he traded for KG and Ray Allen in the same offseason to pair with Pierce. If we could somehow land Dame and another star, then we could become contenders pretty much instantly.

I don't think just Dame and Lauri are enough to get over the hump, even if surrounded by good role players. Dame's age and contract also scare me a little bit.

 

[HermanG]

Markkenanen is a great guy and good player, but he isn't taking us anywhere. He's a 3rd option on a title team but we have to build around him like he's a #1 or #2.

We cleaned up on the Rudy deal and should have built around Don from there. We panicked and put all our chips into the draft basket.

Ive always wanted to compare a true 3rd option to a true superstar. Thanks for pointing me to those guys!

Per 36 minutes	Points	Rebounds	Assists	Steals	Blocks	FTA	BPM	DD's	Usage
Lauri	26.1	9.0	1.9	0.7	0.7	6.0	2.8	22	24.8
Donovan	27.7	4.1	4.9	1.5	0.4	5.4	5.4	4	30.5

Its funny how much better that superstar looks. I mean 38.6 PRABS on 30.5% usage is easily superstar and 38.4 on 24.8% usage is obviously 3rd option. I wish the usage was more comparable... Oh wait, lets do Lauri's numbers since December 24th as Hardy told they had a film session during the holiday break where the team annointed Lauri as the #1 guy.

Per 36 minutes	Points	Rebounds	Assists	Steals	Blocks	PRABS	Usage
Lauri	28.6	9.6	1.4	0.7	0.7	40.9	27.0

Wow still more points than usage... imagine what he would do with Dons 30.5% usage or Giannis 5000% usage with good players or at least proper shooting threats around him.....
Now lets do shooting splits!

Shooting	2P%	3P%	FT%	eFG%	TS%
Lauri	58.9	41.3	87.7	60.6	65.8
Donovan	55.7	38.7	87.3	57.2	61.6

You love dribbling, I get it. Don is clearly the superior dribbler. However Markkanen also beats Don in points per iso. Dont need to dribble that much to beat your guy when you are 7" tall.

Lauri is also 1 year younger and on a better deal to build around than Don.

 

[Douchebag K]

He’s gotten his team nowhere for a decade. And you want to take him as he starts to decline and think it’ll be any different??

 

[KqWIN]

Ive always wanted to compare a true 3rd option to a true superstar. Thanks for pointing me to those guys!

Per 36 minutes	Points	Rebounds	Assists	Steals	Blocks	FTA	BPM	DD's	Usage
Lauri	26.1	9.0	1.9	0.7	0.7	6.0	2.8	22	24.8
Donovan	27.7	4.1	4.9	1.5	0.4	5.4	5.4	4	30.5

Its funny how much better that superstar looks. I mean 38.6 PRABS on 30.5% usage is easily superstar and 38.4 on 24.8% usage is obviously 3rd option. I wish the usage was more comparable... Oh wait, lets do Lauri's numbers since December 24th as Hardy told they had a film session during the holiday break where the team annointed Lauri as the #1 guy.

Per 36 minutes	Points	Rebounds	Assists	Steals	Blocks	PRABS	Usage
Lauri	28.6	9.6	1.4	0.7	0.7	40.9	27.0

Wow still more points than usage... imagine what he would do with Dons 30.5% usage or Giannis 5000% usage with good players or at least proper shooting threats around him.....
Now lets do shooting splits!

Shooting	2P%	3P%	FT%	eFG%	TS%
Lauri	58.9	41.3	87.7	60.6	65.8
Donovan	55.7	38.7	87.3	57.2	61.6

You love dribbling, I get it. Don is clearly the superior dribbler. However Markkanen also beats Don in points per iso. Dont need to dribble that much to beat your guy when you are 7" tall.

Lauri is also 1 year younger and on a better deal to build around than Don.

Lauri has been amazing, but this comparison to Mitchell is silly. Lauri gets assisted on 75% of his baskets, that’s more than Gobert last season. Lauri is able to “create” a great deal of assisted baskets because of his size, shooting, and cutting….but it is not the same thing as being able to generate offense off the dribble. He’s the best at what he does in the entire league….but what he does is not remotely similar to Mitchell.

Mitchell is a true offense engine. He gets assisted on less than half as much of his shot attempts and also more than double the assists. Completely different players, and while Lauri is great….you can’t scale up his own and teammates offense the same way.

Number one, number two option…these are made up terms that don’t reflect reality. What matters is how offense is generated and how much. Lauris is fantastic, but you still need an offense engine to get Lauri more looks. He would be outstanding next to a ball dominant, heliocentric type player.

 

[HermanG]

Lauri has been amazing, but this comparison to Mitchell is silly. Lauri gets assisted on 75% of his baskets, that’s more than Gobert last season. Lauri is able to “create” a great deal of assisted baskets because of his size, shooting, and cutting….but it is not the same thing as being able to generate offense off the dribble. He’s the best at what he does in the entire league….but what he does is not remotely similar to Mitchell.

Mitchell is a true offense engine. He gets assisted on less than half as much of his shot attempts and also more than double the assists. Completely different players, and while Lauri is great….you can’t scale up his own and teammates offense the same way.

Number one, number two option…these are made up terms that don’t reflect reality. What matters is how offense is generated and how much. Lauris is fantastic, but you still need an offense engine to get Lauri more looks. He would be outstanding next to a ball dominant, heliocentric type player.

They are the most basic stats that show the bottom line production. Explain why do you have to "create off the dribble"? Isn't it sufficient that you "create"? FTA has always been a gold standard stat for self-creators and Lauri beats Don there. Your whole point of assisted buckets is laughable, since you actually explain why it is so in your own post. What negates assists? Dribbling.

FYI, Don takes 3.5 spot up shots to Lauri's 4.7 per game. So yeah.. 1.2 more spot ups per game but thats it for the high percentage looks set up by others. Lauri's spot up frequency of 22.7% ranks 262nd in the NBA.

And stop acting like Dons almost 5 assists are anything to marvel at. Compare him to other high usage guards:
Luka 8.1, Ja 8.3, Steph 6.3, Dame 7.3, SGA 5.7

Oh and btw... Rebounds matter too. Lauri creates 5.9 extra possessions per 36 there compared to Donovan, and btw...... every single one of those players listed above beat Donovan in both points and rebounds as well.

 

[416Klawzz]

Cavs last year at this time: 36-25
Cavs currently: 38-23

Last year's Cavs by this point lost a lot more games to injury than this year's Cavs.

Truly amazing what landing a superstar like Mitchell can do for a franchise.

Curious as to the statistics with Gobert?
He isn't quite the all star anymore they say ...

 

[HermanG]

Cavs last year at this time: 36-25
Cavs currently: 38-23

Last year's Cavs by this point lost a lot more games to injury than this year's Cavs.

Truly amazing what landing a superstar like Mitchell can do for a franchise.

To further emphasize how injuried derailed them... here is another comparison. Their most played lineup last year managed to only play 225 minutes during the regular season.

Cavs this years most played lineup:
Garland - Mitchell - Okoro - Mobley - Allen.... net rating +4.9 in 258 minutes together

Cavs last years most played lineup:
Garland - Markkanen - Okoro - Mobley - Allen... net rating +11.6 in 225 minutes together

 

[KqWIN]

They are the most basic stats that show the bottom line production. Explain why do you have to "create off the dribble"? Isn't it sufficient that you "create"? FTA has always been a gold standard stat for self-creators and Lauri beats Don there. Your whole point of assisted buckets is laughable, since you actually explain why it is so in your own post. What negates assists? Dribbling.

FYI, Don takes 3.5 spot up shots to Lauri's 4.7 per game. So yeah.. 1.2 more spot ups per game but thats it for the high percentage looks set up by others. Lauri's spot up frequency of 22.7% ranks 262nd in the NBA.

And stop acting like Dons almost 5 assists are anything to marvel at. Compare him to other high usage guards:
Luka 8.1, Ja 8.3, Steph 6.3, Dame 7.3, SGA 5.7

Oh and btw... Rebounds matter too. Lauri creates 5.9 extra possessions per 36 there compared to Donovan, and btw...... every single one of those players listed above beat Donovan in both points and rebounds as well.

Did you just say FTA has always been the golden measure of self creation? That is legitimately one of the most laughable claims I have heard on this site lol. And you have the gall to dismiss my argument because of “basic stats”. I legitimately do not know how you landed on the conclusion that FTA=Self creation and also that this is somehow a gold standard.

Having said that, the “dribbling” argument raised this stupidly to another level. Yeah, forgive me for thinking self creation is when you score after dribbling and not after receiving a pass to score. What an idiot I am….obviously if you score without being assisted it is not self created if you dribbled. Also, your assists don’t matter because there exists players not even being compared that have more assists so unless you have the most assists it doesn’t matter. Wow.

But wait….how could I forget about rebounding. You know what, creating offense is all about rebounding. That’s obviously what is meant by “creating offense” and being an “offensive engine”.

This is a pathetic argument for something that is blatantly obvious. But I guess if rebounding and FTA = self creation I have no idea what self creation means. There is one player who uses nearly half his possessions as a PnR ball handler or in Isolation. The other player uses less the 10%. It’s about a 5x difference. But it’s the rebounding, FTA, and lack of dribbling that actually represents self created offense.

There is a major difference in the way they get their offense, and yes it does matter. Lauri pushes the bounds for the amount of shots he can gets. Like I said, he does create more of these looks than anyone else in the league because of his talent. But there is a cap on how much of these kinds of looks you can get, and he can’t get them alone.

Steve Nash won an MVP with less PPG, half the FTA, and like 10 less rebounds than Gobert had last season. You mean to tell me Steve Nash was not the creator Gobert was? Laughable. This argument is so bad it deserves the instant ignore that on Eddie Zero has achieved.

 

[KqWIN]

He’s gotten his team nowhere for a decade. And you want to take him as he starts to decline and think it’ll be any different??

He’s taken his team farther than the Jazz franchise has gone in 10+ years….but this argument is dumb anyways because we’re not talking about putting him on his past teams. We’re talking about putting him on this Jazz team. Imagine if the Ainge looked at KG and Ray Allen and said “he’s taken his team nowhere, no thanks”.

 

[HermanG]

Did you just say FTA has always been the golden measure of self creation? That is legitimately one of the most laughable claims I have heard on this site lol. And you have the gall to dismiss my argument because of “basic stats”. I legitimately do not know how you landed on the conclusion that FTA=Self creation and also that this is somehow a gold standard.

Having said that, the “dribbling” argument raised this stupidly to another level. Yeah, forgive me for thinking self creation is when you score after dribbling and not after receiving a pass to score. What an idiot I am….obviously if you score without being assisted it is not self created if you dribbled. Also, your assists don’t matter because there exists players not even being compared that have more assists so unless you have the most assists it doesn’t matter. Wow.

But wait….how could I forget about rebounding. You know what, creating offense is all about rebounding. That’s obviously what is meant by “creating offense” and being an “offensive engine”.

This is a pathetic argument for something that is blatantly obvious. But I guess if rebounding and FTA = self creation I have no idea what self creation means. There is one player who uses nearly half his possessions as a PnR ball handler or in Isolation. The other player uses less the 10%. It’s about a 5x difference. But it’s the rebounding, FTA, and lack of dribbling that actually represents self created offense.

There is a major difference in the way they get their offense, and yes it does matter. Lauri pushes the bounds for the amount of shots he can gets. Like I said, he does create more of these looks than anyone else in the league because of his talent. But there is a cap on how much of these kinds of looks you can get, and he can’t get them alone.

Steve Nash won an MVP with less PPG, half the FTA, and like 10 less rebounds than Gobert had last season. You mean to tell me Steve Nash was not the creator Gobert was? Laughable. This argument is so bad it deserves the instant ignore that on Eddie Zero has achieved.

Oh wow did I hurt your feelings there? Surprisingly salty response.

Just to correct your reading comprehension, these are things I didn't say that you claimed I did:

• Call FTA = Self-creation. I just called it a gold standard stat. That doesn't mean its conclusive.
• I didn't call rebounding self-creation at all (creating possessions is different than creating baskets, you know). You probably just read this wrong, and understand the difference.
• I didnt say Don's assists dont matter, I just said those arent something to flex about, especially if you put it in the context of superstar guards which he supposedly is

You seem to have lots of opinions. Good for you. But let me ask you one thing.... are you sure you have to dribble to create offense? Like, if we would take a look at the list of top 10 scorers of all time... I'm sure the list is full of dribblers... right? Has to be...

I know your comeback.. its "ArE yOU comPARinG LauRi to aLL time greaTs?". Answer is no. But the deeper wisdom is, that you dont have to dribble to be the biggest problem for the opposing defense. Many of those guys had their spot where they got the ball and scored effectively and in huge volumes without the defense having much chance. Sounds familiar?

Also wanna hear a funny story. My initial post was a response to LoPo calling Lauri the 3rd option. It was not to prove Lauri is a better player than Donovan... merely to highlight that the two are not that far apart in terms of production. You made that interpretation somewhere along the way.