Dear FRONT OFFICE: NO ONE WANTS TO WIN GAMES WITH RJ AND MW!

[Deleted member 848]

Kinda like alec burks.

Last game burks took what, 2 shots and the jazz seemed just fine.

Thats the problem i have

You, gvc, jim less, and frank keep telling me that burks cant start cause it won't work, favors and kanter cant play together, the young players need jefferson and marvin to play along side of them to be any good etc etc.

That's not what were saying. I'll speak for myself: I'm not saying it won't work-- I'm saying Burks plays better when Burks gets more touches, because that is his style of game.

Those things are safe and easy to say when burks doesnt get a chance to start and favors and kanter dont get to play together with a healthy roster and the core 5 dont get to start together.

But then i see burks start and the team looks great.

Yes, because Burks hasnt been playing with Hayward, who as the team's leading scorer will be taking much of the offensive responsibility away from Burks.

I see favors and kanter playing together and the team kicking ***.

So maybe if the core 5 got to start together then you guys would find out that that lineup works together.

It might work together-- but you will mostly likely get more out of a ball-dominating 2-guard with an average perimeter shot, but a great driving capability and decent passing skills, if you leave the ball in his hands more. Simple basketball. And since Hayward > Burks, Burks probably needs to get most his touches off the bench.

 

[Deleted member 848]

I mean look at the game thread for tonight.

Butthurt losers stay out?
Im a butthurt loser for liking the core of our team?

When did that become a bad thing?

I'm not talking about the behaviour of others. Don't use someone else's douchebaggery to justify your own. Let him do his thing, and you do yours.

 

[fishonjazz]

Thanks for the responses dalamon.

Sorry for bein a whiny dick.
Im as guilty of the arguing and insults as anyone else is

 

[JimLes]

Butthurt losers stay out?
Im a butthurt loser for liking the core of our team?

No, you're a butthurt loser for being upset when the Jazz win and bitching and complaining about the Jazz winning. Especially in GTs, which for some stupid reason I think should be positive. Especially when we win. But go on, tell us more about how we're going to be a further step away from Parker in 3 hours when we beat the Wolves.

 

[Hitman]

Playing with vets in lineups that make sense helps the youth on the team learn to play winning NBA basketball. Throwing players out there without well-defined roles, in roles they're not suited to or ready to fill, or in lineups that make their success as players more difficult hinders development. It's that simple.

I'm all for RJ's minutes to be cut in favor of Burks, but this is a pretty minor gripe considering how quickly the young talent on the team has matured this season.

And for those who only read boxscores and don't watch games, the role of RJ and MW has been to stand on the 3-point line and be ready to catch-and-shoot, or drive on their man if they close out too hard, and they both run the floor. Because they are credible outside shooting threats (RJ: 43.8%, MW: 39.5%), this keeps the interior open for Favors (or Kanter) to post-up and play one-on-one, or have the space to run the pick-and-roll with the PG without running into a help defender.

Without credible outside shooters, we would be back to where we were 2 years ago, with defences playing "with one foot in the paint". The big men would face endless double-teams in the post and defenders would be free to help off their man whenever we tried to run a pick-and-roll.

Burks has made great strides in his game, but isn't yet the outside threat of RJ or MW. Having said that, he has played about the same minutes as RJ and more than MW this season, so the vets aren't actually holding him back. In fact, of the 'Core 5', only Kanter averages fewer minutes per game than RJ and MW, and that's attributable to his poor conditioning at the start of the season.

Also, the Core 5 are our top 5 in PPG, RJ and MW and 6th and 7th (which correlates with their lower usage rate). It's the Core 5 that are winning the games, RJ and MW are just providing depth. The vets are hardly "leading us to victory", its the youth getting the major minutes and doing most of the scoring. You want to win less, you have to bench the Core 5. You want to develop the Core 5, you have to play them and accept winning as a consequence.

 

[Revolution 9]

No. Are you really this ****ing dense? All 5 players are taking on vastly different roles this season. Gordo and Kanter (and arguably Burks) struggled a ton early in the season. Burks is being brought off the bench to maximize the combined opportunity of Burks, Burke and Hayward to play on-ball. The young players are leading this team, with support from Marvin and RJ, who've done a pretty damn good job filling their complementary roles.

Resorting to the insults now? Now I know I'm on track.

"helps the youth on the team learn to play winning NBA basketball" What was our record to start the season? Excuse me that's not winning basketball.
Are you dense? Laughable is your statement now. THIS TEAM STARTING WINNING WHEN A ROOKIE CAME IN.

And again "vastly different roles this season". They could have been better prepared last year, when we wasted time on Big Al, and Sap. When some of us, me and others, knew they weren't our future.

 

[DutchJazzer]

Should Burks get more minutes than Jefferson? Yes-- I DO understand Ty's thinking, however.
Does it suck that Kanter still hasn't gotten lots of minutes? Well, yes, but he hasn't been consistent defensively, and Marv has done a good job. Burks, on the other hand, is at worst just as good as Jefferson on both ends of the court (even though Jefferson provides better floor-spacing than Burks does, which makes him a more ideal 4th option on offense).

Is there anything else I could complain about in terms of coaching? Well no, not really.

al jefferson was consistently bad on defense yet his minutes where guaranteed.

so yeah kanter should get minutes his defense should be no excuse

 

[Revolution 9]

And for those who only read boxscores and don't watch games, the role of RJ and MW has been to stand on the 3-point line and be ready to catch-and-shoot, or drive on their man if they close out too hard, and they both run the floor. Because they are credible outside shooting threats (RJ: 43.8%, MW: 39.5%), this keeps the interior open for Favors (or Kanter) to post-up and play one-on-one, or have the space to run the pick-and-roll with the PG without running into a help defender.

Without credible outside shooters, we would be back to where we were 2 years ago, with defences playing "with one foot in the paint". The big men would face endless double-teams in the post and defenders would be free to help off their man whenever we tried to run a pick-and-roll.

Burks has made great strides in his game, but isn't yet the outside threat of RJ or MW. Having said that, he has played about the same minutes as RJ and more than MW this season, so the vets aren't actually holding him back. In fact, of the 'Core 5', only Kanter averages fewer minutes per game than RJ and MW, and that's attributable to his poor conditioning at the start of the season.

Also, the Core 5 are our top 5 in PPG, RJ and MW and 6th and 7th (which correlates with their lower usage rate). It's the Core 5 that are winning the games, RJ and MW are just providing depth. The vets are hardly "leading us to victory", its the youth getting the major minutes and doing most of the scoring. You want to win less, you have to bench the Core 5. You want to develop the Core 5, you have to play them and accept winning as a consequence.

You said it. "Without credible outside shooters" we won't succeed. The paint will tighten up, and Favors, and Kanter won't excel. This team didn't start winning until Trey came in. He is the engine that makes this car run. However, we can't deny that spacing the floor will always help win NBA basketball games. Since RJ, and Marvin will probably be gone next year, and with them we aren't a playoff team or a bottom seed going nowhere at best. Why are we playing them with our young core now? What happens when they are gone, and we don't have Jabari or Wiggins to replace them? They might not be "leading us to victory", but they are helping the spacing which is helping the bigs. So we'll really be in trouble next year. Unless the results of this year are ok with you.

Whatever has happened this year is over. We need to look at the future. What course of action will take this core 5 to the next level? Winning too many games this year, and losing out on a top pick hurts this team. Unless it's the core 5 doing it themselves. If they improve their shooting enough alone then they can earn their spot themselves. If they can't, they'll they get a stud to complete the puzzle, and take us forward. Our current course will not take us anywhere special. Unless 1st round exits are your thing.

 

[DutchJazzer]

Burks, burke and hayward can shoot the 3.
its just a matter of putitng in the RIGHT system.

it is no accident spurs players seem invincible on 3 point line.
they get lots of open 3's

 

[Hitman]

Winning too many games this year, and losing out on a top pick hurts this team. Unless it's the core 5 doing it themselves.

Did you even read my post? It is the Core 5 doing it, now that they are a 5 (i.e. since Trey has been playing). With one minor exception, the Core 5 are getting more court time and scoring more than both RJ and MW.

PPG:

Hayward - 17.1
Burke - 13.7
Favors - 13.5
Burks - 12.9
Kanter - 11.4
Jefferson - 10.4
Williams - 9.3
Evans - 6.8

MPG:

Hayward - 36.1
Favors - 31.3
Burke - 31.0
Burks - 27.6
Jefferson - 27.5
Williams - 26.4
Kanter - 25.0
Evans - 18.8

So only Kanter, who started the season in poor physical condition, averages less minutes that the vets who are supposedly favored, although he still scores more, because he takes more shots than they do. RJ and MW are essentially the #6 and #7 guys on the depth chart, even though they start.

Since RJ, and Marvin will probably be gone next year, and with them we aren't a playoff team or a bottom seed going nowhere at best. Why are we playing them with our young core now?

Because the Core 5 can't play 48 mins a game and have to have someone else on the court with them. Because it's better for their development to play with guys that the defence has to account for, instead of someone like JLIII. Because RJ and MW are willing to accept their roles as 4th and 5th offensive options. Because RJ and MW run the offence and pass the ball (RJ is 4th on the team in assists, BTW).

Again, the premise of this thread is faulty. RJ and MW aren't winning games for us.

 

[Hitman]

Burks, burke and hayward can shoot the 3.
its just a matter of putitng in the RIGHT system.

it is no accident spurs players seem invincible on 3 point line.
they get lots of open 3's

Burke and Hayward, yes. Burks not so much, but he's definitely improving.

 

[Primetime]

Did you even read my post? It is the Core 5 doing it, now that they are a 5 (i.e. since Trey has been playing). With one minor exception, the Core 5 are getting more court time and scoring more than both RJ and MW.

So only Kanter, who started the season in poor physical condition, averages less minutes that the vets who are supposedly favored, although he still scores more, because he takes more shots than they do. RJ and MW are essentially the #6 and #7 guys on the depth chart, even though they start.

Because the Core 5 can't play 48 mins a game and have to have someone else on the court with them. Because it's better for their development to play with guys that the defence has to account for, instead of someone like JLIII. Because RJ and MW are willing to accept their roles as 4th and 5th offensive options. Because RJ and MW run the offence and pass the ball (RJ is 4th on the team in assists, BTW).

Again, the premise of this thread is faulty. RJ and MW aren't winning games for us.

You're right they are not winning because of them but with out RJ and Marvin there is no chance this team has already 14 wins.