Do you still want to see Big Al shipped?

[Brown Notes]

he's made nominal progress, but that's about it. there are still a huge number of possessions where the balls never touches anybody's hands except al and the initiator on the strong side wing for most/all of the shot clock. and here's the thing... even if he scores on that play, it's just not good basketball. he's an elite post scorer, but the effect he has on team execution is negative. he uses 22.5 possessions per 40 minutes -- or about 28.6% of the team's possessions -- plus all the ones where he doesn't officially use the play but he dictates what happens because he stops the ball so long that by the time he finally gets rid of it there isn't time to go through the set and run the options so someone winds up shooting a late inefficient shot.

now consider that he gets 1.04 points per shot, or .974 points per possession... both below the team average. why would you let a player that inefficient dictate somewhere around a third of your team's offense?

final thought: if, as a previous poster stated, al/fav/kan are "interchangeable" then isn't keeping all 3 a bad idea? don't you need some versatility? if you have three guys who are a little too undistinguishable, aren't you a ridiculously easy team to prep for and shut down? not to mention that miami just showed the league how to shut down al: front him, ball-deny and, if it comes right down to it, just put a smaller hyperactive defender on him to frustrate him because he doesn't play physical enough to use his size advantage to overpower anybody.

Wow, I don't know how you could get much more wrong.

Miami was fronting Al all game. What happened in the 4th was we stopped using Hi-Lo to beat it. Why, I don't know, guys probably were just reverting under pressure. But Al was definitely being physical with LBJ, getting plenty of space from the rim for a lob or entry from the top of the key. Saying Al was responsible for not getting the ball due to being passive is beyond ridiculous. Perhaps you should watch it again.

Also, these nominal improvements represent steps toward a much more complete game. We have definitely seen, this year, flashes of very good defensive rotations from Al. It's a big deal to see he can do it, and he will get more and more consistent as he works at it. Same goes with his passing, 2 years ago he didn't see any need to do anything but try to score once the ball was in his hands. Last year he started passing out of doubles and finding open shooters from time to time, this year we are seeing that sweet hook pass into the lane, a lot more interior passing between all the bigs and Al is passing directly out of his shooting motion with accuracy to outside shooters.

It's really odd I feel like the only person who was wowed with Al opening himself up to that high pass against the fronting defender, and shielding the incoming ball. Last year Corbin specifically talked about this and implied Al didn't even get what he was talking about. If Al can do this he can also open himself up rolling to the basket after a screen. These plays result in fouls called a lot more often than his typical shake n bake push shots. Also if he can get this going a lot more of the court will be useful to him. Do you see how this stuff sort of all comes together?

Nerd, you and others do a wonderful job of supporting your statements with statistics and I don't want to discredit that too much, but in a way this stuff is a bit of a smokescreen in that there seems to be an implication that the player is a finished product. Maybe to you he is, or you want him to be since his best attribute alone is not good enough to build a team around. But it isn't so. These additions to his game do matter and do help make the team better, and the things he added in the past continue to improve. Altogether it represents a commitment to hard work that Al gets not only no credit for, but actually is accused of the opposite.

Obviously I don't expect to change anybody's mind around here, so clearly I'm a little crazy to keep chewing on this argument. But I'm excited to see what happens next with him. IMO he is going to be really, really good coming on down the stretch this year, we are going to start seeing strings of games where he is averaging over 3 assists and 5 FTs.

When that happens the FO is going to have to think really hard before committing to moving on without him.

 

[billyshelby]

We're not keeping Al or Sap so I have no idea why there is any reason to debate. We'll roll into next season with Favors/Kanter as we should, and neither can score remotely as well in the post as Al or Sap. We'll be worse while they get better, and hopefully they actually will get better.

The only question is whether the FO deems trading Al, Sap, or both a better option than letting them expire and having the cap space. The FA market isn't great, and I dread how they will use that flexibility, but cap space in the abstract is good.

 

[DutchJazzer]

Imo I think in the recent weeks you're really starting to see the extent of how far AL has progressed as a player since being here. He's a much more willing and improved passer than he was when he got here, he's been much more agressive instead of settling for jumpers (since the new year began), and he actually comes out to defend the pick and roll. When he's agressive you're really starting to see the extent of his footwork

He's not perfect, but he's a much better player than he was when we got him from Minny.

He was only around 24 when we got him if I remember correctly, he's only a month older than Sap.

every year he shows a flash of that.
but for the msot part he is just fools gold.

and come playoff time he will be like mcgrady.
bringin us NOWHERE>
cus you need defense from your center. and he refuses to play defense

 

[DutchJazzer]

2010-shows mid range J
2011-learns to share ball
2012-showing ability to play team D, opening up to Hi-Lo entry pass.

Al's improvement is not a myth.

problem is everyear he ahs shown thos e things. you just choose to see it late.
he has shown the abilty to play d way before this year,
he had midrange shto in minnesota

 

[Brown Notes]

I didn't pay any attention to Al before '10 which happens to be the same year I was able to start watching a lot of Jazz games.

What I posted was what I saw happening. I remember I think Locke or Harp discussing how they didn't know Al could reliably score outside 5 feet early on.

 

[DutchJazzer]

Wow, I don't know how you could get much more wrong.

Miami was fronting Al all game. What happened in the 4th was we stopped using Hi-Lo to beat it. Why, I don't know, guys probably were just reverting under pressure. But Al was definitely being physical with LBJ, getting plenty of space from the rim for a lob or entry from the top of the key. Saying Al was responsible for not getting the ball due to being passive is beyond ridiculous. Perhaps you should watch it again.

Also, these nominal improvements represent steps toward a much more complete game. We have definitely seen, this year, flashes of very good defensive rotations from Al. It's a big deal to see he can do it, and he will get more and more consistent as he works at it. Same goes with his passing, 2 years ago he didn't see any need to do anything but try to score once the ball was in his hands. Last year he started passing out of doubles and finding open shooters from time to time, this year we are seeing that sweet hook pass into the lane, a lot more interior passing between all the bigs and Al is passing directly out of his shooting motion with accuracy to outside shooters.

It's really odd I feel like the only person who was wowed with Al opening himself up to that high pass against the fronting defender, and shielding the incoming ball. Last year Corbin specifically talked about this and implied Al didn't even get what he was talking about. If Al can do this he can also open himself up rolling to the basket after a screen. These plays result in fouls called a lot more often than his typical shake n bake push shots. Also if he can get this going a lot more of the court will be useful to him. Do you see how this stuff sort of all comes together?

Nerd, you and others do a wonderful job of supporting your statements with statistics and I don't want to discredit that too much, but in a way this stuff is a bit of a smokescreen in that there seems to be an implication that the player is a finished product. Maybe to you he is, or you want him to be since his best attribute alone is not good enough to build a team around. But it isn't so. These additions to his game do matter and do help make the team better, and the things he added in the past continue to improve. Altogether it represents a commitment to hard work that Al gets not only no credit for, but actually is accused of the opposite.

Obviously I don't expect to change anybody's mind around here, so clearly I'm a little crazy to keep chewing on this argument. But I'm excited to see what happens next with him. IMO he is going to be really, really good coming on down the stretch this year, we are going to start seeing strings of games where he is averaging over 3 assists and 5 FTs.

When that happens the FO is going to have to think really hard before committing to moving on without him.

if you see al is improving with minutes. why waste minutes on him when favors and kanter are way better.
they need minutes to improve to.

screw al's "improvement"
it is a myth anyway

 

[DutchJazzer]

Obviously I don't expect to change anybody's mind around here, so clearly I'm a little crazy to keep chewing on this argument. But I'm excited to see what happens next with him. IMO he is going to be really, really good coming on down the stretch this year, we are going to start seeing strings of games where he is averaging over 3 assists and 5 FTs.

and the playoff comes around and we get swept because of his truly amazing lack of defense. and avg 40 minutes per game in the playoff.
but hey atleast kanter and favors will get 3-8 minutes per game of valuable playoff experience

 

[Brown Notes]

and the playoff comes around and we get swept because of his truly amazing lack of defense. and avg 40 minutes per game in the playoff.
but hey atleast kanter and favors will get 3-8 minutes per game of valuable playoff experience

I don't believe any of that will happen. Al's better, Ty's better, Derrick is way better and Enes is getting good too. The other support players are far superior to Raja, Harris, CJ and Howard. Telling me this team can't perform any better than last year is a tough sell bud.

 

[billyshelby]

Wow, I don't know how you could get much more wrong.

Miami was fronting Al all game. What happened in the 4th was we stopped using Hi-Lo to beat it. Why, I don't know, guys probably were just reverting under pressure. But Al was definitely being physical with LBJ, getting plenty of space from the rim for a lob or entry from the top of the key. Saying Al was responsible for not getting the ball due to being passive is beyond ridiculous. Perhaps you should watch it again.

Also, these nominal improvements represent steps toward a much more complete game. We have definitely seen, this year, flashes of very good defensive rotations from Al. It's a big deal to see he can do it, and he will get more and more consistent as he works at it. Same goes with his passing, 2 years ago he didn't see any need to do anything but try to score once the ball was in his hands. Last year he started passing out of doubles and finding open shooters from time to time, this year we are seeing that sweet hook pass into the lane, a lot more interior passing between all the bigs and Al is passing directly out of his shooting motion with accuracy to outside shooters.

It's really odd I feel like the only person who was wowed with Al opening himself up to that high pass against the fronting defender, and shielding the incoming ball. Last year Corbin specifically talked about this and implied Al didn't even get what he was talking about. If Al can do this he can also open himself up rolling to the basket after a screen. These plays result in fouls called a lot more often than his typical shake n bake push shots. Also if he can get this going a lot more of the court will be useful to him. Do you see how this stuff sort of all comes together?

Nerd, you and others do a wonderful job of supporting your statements with statistics and I don't want to discredit that too much, but in a way this stuff is a bit of a smokescreen in that there seems to be an implication that the player is a finished product. Maybe to you he is, or you want him to be since his best attribute alone is not good enough to build a team around. But it isn't so. These additions to his game do matter and do help make the team better, and the things he added in the past continue to improve. Altogether it represents a commitment to hard work that Al gets not only no credit for, but actually is accused of the opposite.

Obviously I don't expect to change anybody's mind around here, so clearly I'm a little crazy to keep chewing on this argument. But I'm excited to see what happens next with him. IMO he is going to be really, really good coming on down the stretch this year, we are going to start seeing strings of games where he is averaging over 3 assists and 5 FTs.

When that happens the FO is going to have to think really hard before committing to moving on without him.

I've come to the conclusion nerd only watches a handful of games and basically tracks the stats. He never has anything to say about the individual games, or plays that stuck out to him, or anything at all remotely related to the execution of team offense or defense. He probably doesn't even have league pass. He's just box score analyzing everything. So I wouldn't put much stock in it.

 

[DutchJazzer]

I don't believe any of that will happen. Al's better, Ty's better, Derrick is way better and Enes is getting good too. The other support players are far superior to Raja, Harris, CJ and Howard. Telling me this team can't perform any better than last year is a tough sell bud.

how do you explains kanter's incredible 8 minutes a vs miami then
kanter could not get off the bench in the 2nd qtr

corbin isnt better!
i bet you my left nut if the playoff started today jeffersuck would get 40 minutes a game(unless all games are 40 point blowouts ofcourse)

 

[Jazz4ever]

I've come to the conclusion nerd only watches a handful of games and basically tracks the stats. He never has anything to say about the individual games, or plays that stuck out to him, or anything at all remotely related to the execution of team offense or defense. He probably doesn't even have league pass. He's just box score analyzing everything. So I wouldn't put much stock in it.

Yes there is a slight chance nerd has a John Hollinger poster on his wall, or a synergy iron-on on his t-shirt, but he makes some solid arguments.

 

[The Fresh Prince]

Yes I want to see him gone.

But reality is Greg would rather keep him to sell tickets.

Al Jefferson = Ticket sales?

I guess with the boat we're in right now, but that's just a horrible excuse... yet possibly true.