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Donald Fires FBI Director who's investigating Russian Election Hacking

The President has consistently declined to act in his own self interest. There does not even have to be a crime that was committed that someone would want to obstruct an investigation of, in order for someone to commit obstruction of justice.

Whether due to guilt, or because he did not like a distraction from the "greatness" of his presidency, the guy just could not sit still about it. From firing Comey, the very act that created the Special Council, to now this, the Special Council knowing Trump ordered him fired. And Mueller learned that from Trump's inner circle because they did not want to commit perjury while talking to Mueller or his team.

Trump has consistently been his own worse enemy where the Special Council's investigation is concerned. And now, in Europe this morning, there's Trump blurting out "Fake news. Fake news. New York Times fake news folks" when reporters yelled out questions as he was walking to meetings. Unbelievable.

The Special Council now must be certain Trump committed obstruction of justice. Foolish beyond measure.

But, the GOP is in charge, and they are going to release the Nunes Memo and use it to prevent impeachment at all costs. Whether they include the intelligence documentation behind the memo is another question altogether. If not, the American people will not be able to really judge the memo's talking points one way or the other. I still believe impeachment is unlikely, but Trump has been shooting himself in the foot from the start. Foolish beyond measure.

https://www.politico.com/magazine/s...er-trump-obstruction-of-justice-russia-216532
 
As good a thread as any I guess.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/worl...22769454f82_story.html?utm_term=.1bff7c34f9f3

The President is going to go after yet another defense spending increase in 2019. From 700 billion to 716 billion.

And the response is that many lawmakers and the Pentagon are upset it isn't more.

I better see full on Iron Man suits for every soldier, hover tanks with two rail gun cannons, flying aircraft carriers like in Avengers, reverse wing jets that shoot plasma rounds, transforming robots and space lasers.
 
Zombie said:
Trump did give the order to fire Mueller. That happened. Being successful in the endeavour of obstruction is not necessary to be guilty of obstruction of justice. It's a crime of intent. So GTFO with this 'nothing happened' nonsense.

Also, answer me this, if this is all no big deal, why was the White House chief counsel willing to resign in protest over it?
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I'm guessing he threatened to resign over it because he strongly disagreed with the idea, and it appears that he got his way since both Mueller and the chief counsel kept their jobs. I do not see the point in getting excited over decisions that were floated but not executed. I am confident that there are all sorts of ideas in this category in every administration.

Let me ask you a question. If, upon Obama's election in '08, the Director of the FBI had launched an investigation into his collusion with Russia largely based on documentation compiled by Mitt Romney's campaign, how would you have reacted if Obama got pissed at the idiocy and fired the Director? Now, I assume you're going to say that Obama would have and should have allowed the FBI to investigate anything they want, but I really don't believe that's how it would have played out had it happened.

Everyone is so partisan that they have no problem with the issues on their side of the ledger, while they simultaneously blow any issue on the other side of the ledger completely out of proportion. If you don't recognize that both sides are doing this, and have been doing this for years, then you are somehow witnessing a completely different version of events than I am. I could easily give you numerous examples of this sort of thing on both sides. IMO, liberals don't really care what did or didn't happen with regard to Russia, or obstruction, or sexual relationships, or taxes or anything else. All they really want is for Trump to be gone, somehow, some way. There are many out there who think that overturning his presidency is so important that they would do anything in their power to help make it happen. The same thing was true of certain people when Obama was president, and Bush, and Clinton...
 
Joe Bagadonuts said:
I'm guessing he threatened to resign over it because he strongly disagreed with the idea, and it appears that he got his way since both Mueller and the chief counsel kept their jobs. I do not see the point in getting excited over decisions that were floated but not executed. I am confident that there are all sorts of ideas in this category in every administration.

Let me ask you a question. If, upon Obama's election in '08, the Director of the FBI had launched an investigation into his collusion with Russia largely based on documentation compiled by Mitt Romney's campaign, how would you have reacted if Obama got pissed at the idiocy and fired the Director? Now, I assume you're going to say that Obama would have and should have allowed the FBI to investigate anything they want, but I really don't believe that's how it would have played out had it happened.

Everyone is so partisan that they have no problem with the issues on their side of the ledger, while they simultaneously blow any issue on the other side of the ledger completely out of proportion. If you don't recognize that both sides are doing this, and have been doing this for years, then you are somehow witnessing a completely different version of events than I am. I could easily give you numerous examples of this sort of thing on both sides. IMO, liberals don't really care what did or didn't happen with regard to Russia, or obstruction, or sexual relationships, or taxes or anything else. All they really want is for Trump to be gone, somehow, some way. There are many out there who think that overturning his presidency is so important that they would do anything in their power to help make it happen. The same thing was true of certain people when Obama was president, and Bush, and Clinton...
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Why do you think his lawyer objected to it to the point of threatening to quit? He probably knows what happened to Joh Dean and didnt want what happened to John Dean to happen to him. In any case, under any president, if white house chief counsel is threatening to quit over a presidential order, that's a big deal and certainly newsworthy.

Your Romney/Obama premise is flawed in a few ways. The dossier isn't the primary basis of the FBIs investigation into Russian interference, their investigation actually began before they had access to it. Also, idgaf who paid who to compile the dossier, only whether it has accurate information. To date, nothing of substance in the dossier has been proven false and much has been confirmed as accurate.

As for your rant about what liberals do and don't care about, you can go f*** off. You don't get to tell me which issues are and are not important to liberals such as myself. This both sides nonsense is just that.

Oh, and Trump didn't just float the idea of firing Mueller. He ordered his counsel to carry it out. There's a pretty stark difference there and is hardly the only instance of Trump attempting to meddle in law enforcement investigations.
 
Just because partisanship exists where opinions stated and facts presented on the Mueller probe is concerned, does not mean that both sides of the partisan divide are equally right, or equally wrong. Nor does it mean that this type of extreme, knee jerk partisanship is always the case, in every administration. It was the Republican Party that led the effort to expose Republican President Richard Nixon 45 years ago.

It takes a great deal to establish obstruction of justice, because you have to demonstrate "corrupt intent" on the part of the person being accused of obstruction of justice. Many liberal outlets are pointing out that Trump himself, through words and actions, has himself been building a case of obstruction of justice where the Mueller probe is concerned. Yes, partisans will chose to see those words and actions through a partisan lens at times. But, it does not mean that neither interpretation has any merit simply because those facts are interpreted differently. On the contrary, one may in fact be correct, and one may in fact be incorrect.

Partisanship does not mean the facts that will establish which interpretation is correct will never be known, will never be discovered, will never be presented in a manner that establishes exactly what happened, and why. In any criminal case, one could say both the prosecution, and the defense, are partisan. That does not mean that therefore both are wrong, and a case of guilt or not guilt simply can never be established.

It's likely axiomatic that liberals and conservatives will see a case for Trump having committed obstruction of justice with corrupt intent differently. But it's also likely that only one interpretation is correct. Proof that partisanship exists does not mean the truth of the matter is forever unknowable. Although, sometimes that does happen.

If the President ordered Mueller fired, with corrupt intent, to prevent Mueller from finding out things about the President that he did not want found out, but the order to fire was not carried out, it still constitutes obstruction of justice. It is not the fault of liberals that the law works that way. And it's not the fault of liberals that such an act by the President can be interpreted as the President basically saying "I am above the law". That's why, at least I believe, it's a big deal. The President cannot be above the law in a nation governed by the rule of law.

At the same time, proving obstruction of justice if there was no underlying crime, such as the Trump campaign actually coordinating with Putin and Russia's interference in the 2016 election to favor Trump, is likely more problematic, and partisanship may play much more of a role then it did when Nixon was under investigation. Far more likely that Republican House members will vote, in any impeachment hearing, as they think their constituents want them to vote. And that's why the Nunes Memo will constitute the other side of the partisan battle here. It will be presented in such a way to make it seem dismissing Mueller and blaming the FBI is the right thing to do. But we do not know yet if Mueller is developing solid evidence of coordination between Russia and the Trump campaign. Mueller has always had a reputation for running a leak free ship. Overall, he's done a good job in that respect, so there may yet be more then an obstruction of justice case brewing here. We'll see.

Sometimes, guilty people go free. Sometimes innocent people are found guilty. In both cases, because of the way facts and arguments are presented.

Republicans are in charge of Congress and the White House. That may turn out to be the only thing that matters where the fate of Donald Trump is concerned. We may find out. Or Mueller may present findings that find absolutely no reason to recommend impeachment hearings to the House.
 
Joe Bagadonuts said:
IMO, liberals don't really care what did or didn't happen with regard to Russia, or obstruction, or sexual relationships, or taxes or anything else. All they really want is for Trump to be gone, somehow, some way. There are many out there who think that overturning his presidency is so important that they would do anything in their power to help make it happen.
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It aint just liberals bro. Many republicans/conservatives think trump is a vile, disgusting, embarrassing, petty, thin skinned, vindictive, egotistical, unqualified, scumbag who should not be our president and want him gone as well. And they should. Im shocked that everyone isn't on this same page. Sad really.
 
I do not think that anything other than partisanship seems to matter to the vast majority of political voices that we hear anymore.

Back in the 80's I remember how crazy the Republicans were going over Clinton's sexual scandals. They were perplexed and livid that Democratic supporters of the president said that his sexual life did not matter. This, despite the fact that credible accusations extending all the way to rape were being made. Now some of those same Republicans stand in support of a president who faces all sorts of sexual allegations, many of which are likely true, while Democrats are the ones wringing their hands over the fact that the president's supporters don't seem to think that his sexual life matters. The Dems are so all in on their strategy that they've even thrown Clinton under the bus in order to gain the moral high ground they believe they need in order to take down the current president. And as bizarre and inconsistent as it seems, their efforts to do this only seem to entrench the current president's supposedly morality based voters in support of him.

Yesterday Trump proposed a DACA solution that looks strikingly similar to solutions I have heard liberals propose many times, but for reasons that I would characterize as partisanship (but which liberals must be finding some other explanation for) Trump's plan was slammed as "a legislative burning cross," "make America white again," and "Klu Klux Klan policy." Never mind that it creates a pathway to citizenship for millions of mostly non-white undocumented residents of this country, liberals are so vitriolic in their hate for this president that the thought of making rational statements rather than massive negative exaggerations about any action of his is apparently unthinkable.

I am no fan of Trump. I voted for Evan Whatshisname because I hoped that Utah was going to make a statement that voters stood for something other than partisan politics, but I was wrong. As bizarre as I find it that Republicans can perform the mental gymnastics required to support Trump in the face of his morality that seems to stand in direct opposition to what they purport to stand for, I find it equally troubling that liberal opposition (which includes our mainstream media outlets) is so committed to Trump's destruction that they will do anything in their power in order to obstruct him.

I wish there was a place for the moderates. I wish that their were firm voices on both sides debating Trump's immigration proposal (or his tax plan, or anything else) based upon actual data, not using ridiculous hyperbole. I wish that people on the right had had the moral conviction to stop Trump at the ballot box. This is such a great country, and I know that there are so many better choices than the politicians we are choosing to represent ourselves, but unfortunately my gut tells me that this partisan crap will only increase, and will lead to wider and wider swings of the pendulum. Moderate Americans will be lost in the middle because only the most narcisistic and extreme candidates will even consider running. Very sad, we could do so much better.
 
Joe Bagadonuts said:
I'm guessing he threatened to resign over it because he strongly disagreed with the idea, and it appears that he got his way since both Mueller and the chief counsel kept their jobs. I do not see the point in getting excited over decisions that were floated but not executed. I am confident that there are all sorts of ideas in this category in every administration.

Let me ask you a question. If, upon Obama's election in '08, the Director of the FBI had launched an investigation into his collusion with Russia largely based on documentation compiled by Mitt Romney's campaign, how would you have reacted if Obama got pissed at the idiocy and fired the Director? Now, I assume you're going to say that Obama would have and should have allowed the FBI to investigate anything they want, but I really don't believe that's how it would have played out had it happened.

Everyone is so partisan that they have no problem with the issues on their side of the ledger, while they simultaneously blow any issue on the other side of the ledger completely out of proportion. If you don't recognize that both sides are doing this, and have been doing this for years, then you are somehow witnessing a completely different version of events than I am. I could easily give you numerous examples of this sort of thing on both sides. IMO, liberals don't really care what did or didn't happen with regard to Russia, or obstruction, or sexual relationships, or taxes or anything else. All they really want is for Trump to be gone, somehow, some way. There are many out there who think that overturning his presidency is so important that they would do anything in their power to help make it happen. The same thing was true of certain people when Obama was president, and Bush, and Clinton...
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I had my finger hovering over the "like" button until you said people want the election overturned.

Trump is the President. I want him removed. That's not overturning the election, that's holding the President accountable. Overturning the election would mean Hillary became the President. That's not even a possibility. I'll be happy if "can't be alone with a woman" Pence becomes the President. That's how it would work.

But I agree on your main point. I don't care how or why, I want Trump removed from office. But I'm not a liberal though. You guys sound like Thriller when you throw that **** around.
 
It’s so funny to read people regurgitate hannity word for word. Those who still think that the anti-trump crowd is merely trying to overturn the election because of sour grapes or think the FBI (mostly conservative not liberal agents) have it in for trump and are merely acting in response to the Steele dossier are mentally lost. Sorry, but they are, they’re not redeemable. Years of Fox News, Koch money, corrupt pastors, and paranoia spewed by am radio have rotted out their brains. People like babe are just not redeemable. Crazy snowflakes like them live in their info wars Breitbart safe spots and ignore reality.
 
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Pretty hilarious:

Hannity Thursday night: this NY Times report on how trump tried to fire Mueller is fake news. How often has the times been wrong?

30 minutes later on Fox News a reporter confirms the story to be true.

Hannity: uhhh well... apparently the Times had it right all along. But ummm hey look! Let’s watch this Car chase!!! It’s probably a Muslim Mexican or a black liberal professor who works at an abortion clinic trying to run away from cops!

Watch stupid viewers at the car chase and forget the last hour of pro trump anti Times ******** I just shoveled at you!!!

It takes a special kind of stupid to still watch Fox News and not just LOL.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/erik-wemple/wp/2018/01/26/sean-hannitys-finest-hour/
 
Bulletproof said:
I had my finger hovering over the "like" button until you said people want the election overturned.

Trump is the President. I want him removed. That's not overturning the election, that's holding the President accountable. Overturning the election would mean Hillary became the President. That's not even a possibility. I'll be happy if "can't be alone with a woman" Pence becomes the President. That's how it would work.

But I agree on your main point. I don't care how or why, I want Trump removed from office. But I'm not a liberal though. You guys sound like Thriller when you throw that **** around.
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I hit the like button on your post because you are correct. Poor choice of words on my part. I don't understand your Pence statement. Must be some story that I'm unaware of. The first time I read it I thought you were saying that you would be happy when a woman becomes president. On that point we also agree...as long as it's not a woman like Hillary.
 
The Thriller said:
It’s so funny to read people regurgitate hannity word for word. Those who still think that the anti-trump crowd is merely trying to overturn the election because of sour grapes or think the FBI (mostly conservative not liberal agents) have it in for trump and are merely acting in response to the Steele dossier are mentally lost. Sorry, but they are, they’re not redeemable. Years of Fox News, Koch money, corrupt pastors, and paranoia spewed by am radio have rotted out their brains. People like babe are just not redeemable. Crazy snowflakes like them live in their info wars Breitbart safe spots and ignore reality.
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If you are implying that my post was a regurgitation of Hannity you are incorrect. I don't watch him. Hannity is the very definition of partisanship. He makes up his mind on an event based upon the political affiliations of the people involved. Pretty much exactly like you, except that you align yourself with a different political group than he does.
 
The Thriller said:
Pretty hilarious:

Hannity Thursday night: this NY Times report on how trump tried to fire Mueller is fake news. How often has the times been wrong?

30 minutes later on Fox News a reporter confirms the story to be true.

Hannity: uhhh well... apparently the Times had it right all along. But ummm hey look! Let’s watch this Car chase!!! It’s probably a Muslim Mexican or a black liberal professor who works at an abortion clinic trying to run away from cops!

Watch stupid viewers at the car chase and forget the last hour of pro trump anti Times ******** I just shoveled at you!!!

It takes a special kind of stupid to still watch Fox News and not just LOL.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/erik-wemple/wp/2018/01/26/sean-hannitys-finest-hour/
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I don't know if what you are saying he did is true or not (I have a feeling you're just making up the racist stuff because it somehow makes you feel better about yourself). Regardless, I don't understand throwing stones at him for correcting his report.
 
Obstruction of justice on the one hand. Conspiracy mongering by the President's supporters on the other. Given the fondness of the President for conspiracy thought, it's ironic that his echo chambers would go full Illuminati to defend him. It actually seems natural.

This first article does an excellent job of describing why the obstruction of justice case against Trump is growing stronger. I think it will also answer why ordering Mueller fired is a significant component of that obstruction case, despite Mueller not actually being fired. It's because Trump has to have known it would constitute obstruction, and therefore be a criminal act, if he did fire him, yet he was willing to ignore that knowledge and order it anyway:

https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2018/01/the-obstruction-case-is-getting-solid.html

"To impeach and remove a president for obstructing justice, you need to show that his intent in targeting investigators was corrupt. The easy way is to find tapes in which he talks explicitly about orchestrating false testimony. The harder way is to show that he has repeatedly lied about his motives and has maneuvered to control the investigation, despite warnings to back off. Trump’s assault on Mueller, coupled with his previous assaults on Comey, Sessions, Rosenstein, and McCabe, solidifies that case. He obstructed justice."
-----------------------------------------------------
Since the right wing echo chambers are using the Nunes Memo and conspiracy theory to discredit the Mueller investigation, these articles do an excellent job of demonstrating how these echo chambers, as well as certain Republican legislators, have basically gone over the deep end, have gone full Illuminati, in that effort. Simply put, they are not afraid to sound like complete nutjobs. I do hope, and expect, it will come back to bite them in the long run:

https://www.politico.com/story/2018/01/26/fox-news-deep-state-conspiracies-372856

http://theweek.com/articles/750337/republicans-full-illuminati

https://www.washingtonpost.com/blog...l-their-strategy-work/?utm_term=.56571a190a1a
 
IMG_20180129_162827.jpg
The President is such a damn child.

Oh, and today was the deadline for the White House to put the Russia sanctions that Congress passed into place. Apparently they are opting not to do so. So there's that.
 
Joe Bagadonuts said:
I do not think that anything other than partisanship seems to matter to the vast majority of political voices that we hear anymore.

Back in the 80's I remember how crazy the Republicans were going over Clinton's sexual scandals. They were perplexed and livid that Democratic supporters of the president said that his sexual life did not matter. This, despite the fact that credible accusations extending all the way to rape were being made. Now some of those same Republicans stand in support of a president who faces all sorts of sexual allegations, many of which are likely true, while Democrats are the ones wringing their hands over the fact that the president's supporters don't seem to think that his sexual life matters. The Dems are so all in on their strategy that they've even thrown Clinton under the bus in order to gain the moral high ground they believe they need in order to take down the current president. And as bizarre and inconsistent as it seems, their efforts to do this only seem to entrench the current president's supposedly morality based voters in support of him.

Yesterday Trump proposed a DACA solution that looks strikingly similar to solutions I have heard liberals propose many times, but for reasons that I would characterize as partisanship (but which liberals must be finding some other explanation for) Trump's plan was slammed as "a legislative burning cross," "make America white again," and "Klu Klux Klan policy." Never mind that it creates a pathway to citizenship for millions of mostly non-white undocumented residents of this country, liberals are so vitriolic in their hate for this president that the thought of making rational statements rather than massive negative exaggerations about any action of his is apparently unthinkable.

I am no fan of Trump. I voted for Evan Whatshisname because I hoped that Utah was going to make a statement that voters stood for something other than partisan politics, but I was wrong. As bizarre as I find it that Republicans can perform the mental gymnastics required to support Trump in the face of his morality that seems to stand in direct opposition to what they purport to stand for, I find it equally troubling that liberal opposition (which includes our mainstream media outlets) is so committed to Trump's destruction that they will do anything in their power in order to obstruct him.

I wish there was a place for the moderates. I wish that their were firm voices on both sides debating Trump's immigration proposal (or his tax plan, or anything else) based upon actual data, not using ridiculous hyperbole. I wish that people on the right had had the moral conviction to stop Trump at the ballot box. This is such a great country, and I know that there are so many better choices than the politicians we are choosing to represent ourselves, but unfortunately my gut tells me that this partisan crap will only increase, and will lead to wider and wider swings of the pendulum. Moderate Americans will be lost in the middle because only the most narcisistic and extreme candidates will even consider running. Very sad, we could do so much better.
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Lol

You clearly don't
 
The Thriller said:
It’s so funny to read people regurgitate hannity word for word. Those who still think that the anti-trump crowd is merely trying to overturn the election because of sour grapes or think the FBI (mostly conservative not liberal agents) have it in for trump and are merely acting in response to the Steele dossier are mentally lost. Sorry, but they are, they’re not redeemable. Years of Fox News, Koch money, corrupt pastors, and paranoia spewed by am radio have rotted out their brains. People like babe are just not redeemable. Crazy snowflakes like them live in their info wars Breitbart safe spots and ignore reality.
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Why the f*** are you watching Sean Hannity to know that people are regurgitating his b*******? That ain't good for your psyche man
 
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