Donovan's D so far has been Deplorable

[Handlogten's Heros]

It's not just Donovan, our perimeter defense as a whole has been pretty bad. Shaq and Oni could help, but I also think guy's currently in the rotation are capable of defending better than they are at the moment.

Can't give up straight line drives and then also not rotate. IMO part of it is scheme and matchup based. We funnel into the midrange and expect Rudy/Favs to shut off the paint... then teams play stretch bigs and it goes from looking bad to looking atrocious.

Bojan and DM are both spacey on defense... Mike is small and Royce is solid but not elite. Working Oni and Shaq in would certainly help. I wonder if there are scheme things we can do with zones to keep Rudy in the paint and cover stretch bigs... but zone wasn't great in pre-season. I'd like to see us give it some time especially with teams that struggle from outside.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

Minny went for 45% from three against us and OKC went 40%... they are 30% and 33% respectively on the season. Its partly that they are fairly open but Muscala and Horford going 6/14 and Dort going 5/7 are definitely outliers even when they are "open".

 

[KqWIN]

I think a fair chunk is shooting issues. The other part is we want to see big improvements... so our expectations might be a little high. Then when he starts slow it makes it that much worse. If he is hitting that pullup three he's basically unstoppable. It also opens up a lot of the other stuff.

He's had some bad ball handling moments early in the season and some questionable decisions. I just think the stuff that is hurting Bojan and DM is stuff I expect to get straightened out. Super big picture championship stuff... the perimeter defense has to improve but that was always a long shot given our defensive talent on that end.

The pull up 3 will obviously open things up...but he’s still playing in a way that makes it hard for him succeed. He’s not attacking the hoop much or getting to the line. He’s also not doing much off the ball and nothing at all in transition. Right now the large majority of his offense is pull ups off the dribble in half court and while I expect him to make more of those, it’s almost impossible to be an efficient player playing this way. The way Booker, for example, became a hyper efficient scorer wasn’t through converting the difficult plays. It was getting more easy baskets and free throws through transition and off ball movement. Mitchell hasn’t done that and doesn’t seem interested either.

He’s also just so far behind other ball handlers when reading PnR. Obviously he won’t be Luka or Trae leave right away, but when you watch those guys it’s a completely different ball game because they can make decisions at the last second and are huge threats to score, get to the line, or pass to both the roll man or a shooter. Feels like Mitchell’s decision making is so far behind and he’s still relying on natural talent and shot making to succeed.

 

[LoPo]

The pull up 3 will obviously open things up...but he’s still playing in a way that makes it hard for him succeed. He’s not attacking the hoop much or getting to the line. He’s also not doing much off the ball and nothing at all in transition. Right now the large majority of his offense is pull ups off the dribble in half court and while I expect him to make more of those, it’s almost impossible to be an efficient player playing this way. The way Booker, for example, became a hyper efficient scorer wasn’t through converting the difficult plays. It was getting more easy baskets and free throws through transition and off ball movement. Mitchell hasn’t done that and doesn’t seem interested either.

He’s also just so far behind other ball handlers when reading PnR. Obviously he won’t be Luka or Trae leave right away, but when you watch those guys it’s a completely different ball game because they can make decisions at the last second and are huge threats to score, get to the line, or pass to both the roll man or a shooter. Feels like Mitchell’s decision making is so far behind and he’s still relying on natural talent and shot making to succeed.

Maybe its behind because we finally made the decision to play him at the primary ball handler spot. Doncic and Trae have a 2 year head start not even counting the years they played PG prior to the NBA (Doncic especially).

You guys are ridiculous. Have patience. Be positive.

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[Handlogten's Heros]

Minny had Reid, Culver, and Edwards go 7/10 against us... they are 8/35 in total against other teams. IDK but bad shooting luck is part of the issue these first few games.

 

[oneye]

Maybe its behind because we finally made the decision to play him at the primary ball handler spot. Doncic and Trae have a 2 year head start not even counting the years they played PG prior to the NBA (Doncic especially).

You guys are ridiculous. Have patience. Be positive.

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Oh brother, YOU are ridiculous. It's year 4, we all know Don is a great basketball player, but for the team and he to see the most success possible he has to be better. Period.

 

[KqWIN]

Maybe its behind because we finally made the decision to play him at the primary ball handler spot. Doncic and Trae have a 2 year head start not even counting the years they played PG prior to the NBA (Doncic especially).

You guys are ridiculous. Have patience. Be positive.

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He’s had the ball plenty over the years. Always been a dominant ball handler and his role hasn’t changed much. The way he gets the ball and opportunities is the same. He’s just not a talented passer or a great creator off the ball. What he’s good at is being dynamic off the dribble and making difficult shots. But that’s a tough way to live. There are no elite offensive players that can’t create easy opportunities for himself or others.

And again, this isn’t an ultimatum. It’s been 3 games. Stop treating like any comment on his play is an assertion about his future. Im not going to lie about how he’s played in 3 games or his pst seasons for the sake of being positive.

 

[oneye]

He’s had the ball plenty over the years. Always been a dominant ball handler and his role hasn’t changed much. The way he gets the ball and opportunities is the same. He’s just not a talented passer or a great creator off the ball. Why he’s good at is being dynamic off the dribble and making difficult shots. But that’s a tough way to live. There are no elite offensive players that can’t create easy opportunities for himself or others.

And again, this isn’t an ultimatum. It’s been 3 games. Stop treating like any comment on his play is an assertion about his future. Im not going to lie about how he’s played in 3 games or his pst seasons for the sake of being positive.

This. No one is talking about the entire season. We are talking about the first 3 games.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

The pull up 3 will obviously open things up...but he’s still playing in a way that makes it hard for him succeed. He’s not attacking the hoop much or getting to the line. He’s also not doing much off the ball and nothing at all in transition. Right now the large majority of his offense is pull ups off the dribble in half court and while I expect him to make more of those, it’s almost impossible to be an efficient player playing this way. The way Booker, for example, became a hyper efficient scorer wasn’t through converting the difficult plays. It was getting more easy baskets and free throws through transition and off ball movement. Mitchell hasn’t done that and doesn’t seem interested either.

He’s also just so far behind other ball handlers when reading PnR. Obviously he won’t be Luka or Trae leave right away, but when you watch those guys it’s a completely different ball game because they can make decisions at the last second and are huge threats to score, get to the line, or pass to both the roll man or a shooter. Feels like Mitchell’s decision making is so far behind and he’s still relying on natural talent and shot making to succeed.

Luka and Trae are savant level passers... not sure that is a fair comparison for anyone to live up to. DM does seem to still be a "one read" QB.

I've wondered if he needs to learn the "dark arts" of foul drawing and do all the BS that I hate but it works. Luka and Trae specifically exaggerate contact and bitch all game when they don't get calls. They get probably the two best whistles in the league. DM powers through contact. So do you work on tricking the officials? Its super effective but it is so tough to watch. It isn't just about drives... DM drives a ton. He could get more calls by doing the flopping ******** other guys do.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

Also a little info... DM is shooting 17.6% on pullup threes on 5.7 attempts per game. He shot 32% on those last year... I think that is the shot that opens up more for him if he could get to 35% on 6 attempts a game I think that is the thing that opens up everything and makes him a 30 ppg guy.

He shot infinity percent on pullup threes in the playoffs. it was actually 51% on 7.3 attempts per game... and that makes him nuclear. The threat of the pullup makes everything else so much better.

 

[KqWIN]

Luka and Trae are savant level passers... not sure that is a fair comparison for anyone to live up to. DM does seem to still be a "one read" QB.

I've wondered if he needs to learn the "dark arts" of foul drawing and do all the BS that I hate but it works. Luka and Trae specifically exaggerate contact and bitch all game when they don't get calls. They get probably the two best whistles in the league. DM powers through contact. So do you work on tricking the officials? Its super effective but it is so tough to watch. It isn't just about drives... DM drives a ton. He could get more calls by doing the flopping ******** other guys do.

Yes, it is unfair to compare him to the elite of the elite in terms of playmaking. But I do like the one read QB comparison. It seems like his decision on when to shoot or pass is more predetermined rather than a decision made on the fly. This leads to some ugly shots and turnovers.

The foul drawing is tough. I don’t think there are many examples of players who significantly increased their FTr overtime. I was watching the OKC game again and one of the things I thought to myself is that most other star offensive players would have gotten to the line about 10 times with the contact he was getting. Even on the game winner, for example, Trae wold get a call on that slight contact 99% of the time. But when Don drives it really doesn’t look like a foul at all.

He needs some way of getting easy opportunities. Foul drawing, more shots at the rim, transition, spot up shooting...he’s just not getting a ton of those opportunities for himself.

He’s pretty good as it is to be fair. But to make that jump to become an elite player he needs big improvements. Hopefully it’s just 3 bad games, but the last 3 games have shown a lot more of the same things we’ve seen in 3 seasons.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

The foul drawing is tough. I don’t think there are many examples of players who significantly increased their FTr overtime. I was watching the OKC game again and one of the things I thought to myself is that most other star offensive players would have gotten to the line about 10 times with the contact he was getting. Even on the game winner, for example, Trae wold get a call on that slight contact 99% of the time. But when Don drives it really doesn’t look like a foul at all.

Thats why I think the pullup three is the best way to get him more volume and efficiency. When you power through contact you don't get the call... Heres a secret... referees guess all the time and go based on reaction. As far as getting better I don't think he can flop like Trae or Luka... their body types lend themselves to showing contact better. I think he can work on when he has a step or half step on a guy like Dort just going sideways into the contact rather than straight at the rim is the thing he can improve on .

Honestly I hate the dark arts... I hate charges... I just hate things that aren't real basketball. DM plays a more pure game in that respect and I don't want him to deviate too much. I just wish officiating would adjust. Eric Gordon basically murdered him for 36 minutes a night in the playoffs a couple years ago... if he did that to James he'd shoot 25 free throws. It sucks to penalize guys doing it the right way.

 

[KqWIN]

Thats why I think the pullup three is the best way to get him more volume and efficiency. When you power through contact you don't get the call... Heres a secret... referees guess all the time and go based on reaction. As far as getting better I don't think he can flop like Trae or Luka... their body types lend themselves to showing contact better. I think he can work on when he has a step or half step on a guy like Dort just going sideways into the contact rather than straight at the rim is the thing he can improve on .

Honestly I hate the dark arts... I hate charges... I just hate things that aren't real basketball. DM plays a more pure game in that respect and I don't want him to deviate too much. I just wish officiating would adjust. Eric Gordon basically murdered him for 36 minutes a night in the playoffs a couple years ago... if he did that to James he'd shoot 25 free throws. It sucks to penalize guys doing it the right way.

Yeah I think foul drawing is a gift from the gods, you either have it or you don't. I'd agree that Trae and Luka have better body types to show contact, but there are still very physical and/or athletic players that get to the line at very high rate like Butler, Harden, Giannis ect. I honestly thinking the screaming and commitment to throwing the ball into the stands after slight contact has more of an effect on the refs.

It pretty wild to watch Trae play versus someone like Mitchell. Trae has a forcefield around him and if anyone enters his personal space he's going to "shoot" and get a foul call. Doesn't matter where on the court it is. I think I saw a stat where he was getting fouled on 21% of his three point attempts. It's insane.

Mitchell does seem to get more 3 point flop fouls and rip throughs these days....but he's not at the flop expertise to get a call every time he has a half step on the defender. The very best don't even half to have a half step on the defender.

 

[LoPo]

He’s had the ball plenty over the years. Always been a dominant ball handler and his role hasn’t changed much. The way he gets the ball and opportunities is the same. He’s just not a talented passer or a great creator off the ball. What he’s good at is being dynamic off the dribble and making difficult shots. But that’s a tough way to live. There are no elite offensive players that can’t create easy opportunities for himself or others.

And again, this isn’t an ultimatum. It’s been 3 games. Stop treating like any comment on his play is an assertion about his future. Im not going to lie about how he’s played in 3 games or his pst seasons for the sake of being positive.

Can you admit that the role he played during the playoffs was largely different than the role he played during the regular season?


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[LoPo]

Its amazing that Don is an All Star at all. He isn't an "elite of the elite" facilitator. He's an awful pull up shooter. He's a trash defender.

Why is this guy even in the league?

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[Getting Traded]

Minny had Reid, Culver, and Edwards go 7/10 against us... they are 8/35 in total against other teams. IDK but bad shooting luck is part of the issue these first few games.

Yeah, but they were getting wide open looks. You think that was happening against other teams?

 

[KqWIN]

Can you admit that the role he played during the playoffs was largely different than the role he played during the regular season?


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It wasn't that different. He got the ball more, shot more, and most importantly played incredibly well. But that wasn't a massive shift in his role or how he got his opportunities. Really he was just doing a lot more of what he did before and doing it much better than he had in the RS. His usage increase is what you would expect with Conley out two games and Bogey out the whole series.

 

[whatthe]

I have no beef with his D. Of course I want all players to be flawless but that ain't happening. What I really really want extra from Donovan is to become more like Jokic. The focal point of the offense but at the same time makes otherworldly plays.

 

[LoPo]

It wasn't that different. He got the ball more, shot more, and most importantly played incredibly well. But that wasn't a massive shift in his role or how he got his opportunities. Really he was just doing a lot more of what he did before and doing it much better than he had in the RS. His usage increase is what you would expect with Conley out two games and Bogey out the whole series.

So he's doing the same thing even though the coaching staff came out and publicly said they are changing the roles for both Conley and Don?

I knew you would find a way to spin usage stats, but our structure is different. In the playoffs, Don took over when everything bogged down. Now, he will learn to channel that more consistently. It won't happen overnight especially since season ball is a different pace than playoff ball.



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[KqWIN]

So he's doing the same thing even though the coaching staff came out and publicly said they are changing the roles for both Conley and Don?

I knew would find a way to spin usage stats, but our structure is different. In the playoffs, Don took over when everything bogged down. Now, he will learn to channel that more consistently. It won't happen overnight especially since season ball is a different pace than playoff ball.



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I mean...yeah he is still doing the same things as he always has. He did them more in the playoffs and he did them better. Do you really think Donovan was scoring and getting opportunities in different ways than he was before? He operates almost entirely out of PnR and Isolations. It's been that way forever.

He's also always shot the ball late and "taken over" in clutch time. That's not a new thing at all. The defining part of Mitchell's game has been creating his own offense. Literally since he was a rookie that's been the most distinct aspect of his game.