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Gottlieb Daimler was not a part of the horse drawn carriage industry in any way, shape, or form.

Come on..... just stop.​

So, you were talking about carriages after all. Make up your mind.

I'm sure Daimler never talked to anyone who had made carriages nor studied them at all before he put an internal combustion engine on one. That's the logical thing for an inventor to do, right? Reinvent the carriage from the ground up.[/sarcasm]

The notion of the outsides who revolutionizes a system, and improves it, with no experience in the system nor advice from experts, is a myth. It's not reality. That's not how human progress works. It's Besty DeVos running the Department of Education. We make progress by standing on the shoulders of those who came before us to reach new heights.
 
My insurance company doesn't take the responsibility for **** until I reach a high *** deductable first despite the fact that I'm paying a pretty high (to me anyway) premium every week.

Though you are right that I don't "shop around" as it's hard to get a true answer about cost when you do call a doctor office and my insurance only covers certain ones anyway.

I sometimes have things going on with my body that I should definitely have checked out but I don't cause it's too expensive. I mean I might have cancer but whatever, just gonna hope for the best instead of finding out.


Our health care system sucks.

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I agree with all of this.
 
I don't think healthcare should be free btw. But maybe the 500 dollars per month I pay for premiums should cover my healthcare.
Instead the 500 dollars per month basically does nothing. When I go to the doctor I pay 100% of the cost up until a deductible amount that I will rarely ever meet.
So that 500 per month gets me absolutely nothing.

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I don't think healthcare should be free btw. But maybe the 500 dollars per month I pay for premiums should cover my healthcare.
Instead the 500 dollars per month basically does nothing. When I go to the doctor I pay 100% of the cost up until a deductible amount that I will rarely ever meet.
So that 500 per month gets me absolutely nothing.

It's never free. Mine is paid for my my premiums and my employers matching of those premiums. Under a universal system, those premiums would become taxes instead.
 
In our system the buyer doesn't even have access to the prices, and they generally don't care what they are anyway because the insurance company takes the responsibility. They are not being idiots. They are simply reacting to the way the system is set up.And btw, if you choose not to have insurance and shop around for your own medical care you are in an even worse position because you do not get the same prices that the insurance companies do... not even close. You would end up paying far more for the procedures than the insurance company would at the most expensive provider, even if you went with the least expensive provider.

So they have choices and just choose not to usually shop around.

Sounds like a lazy consumer in a market setting.
 
So they have choices and just choose not to usually shop around.

Sounds like a lazy consumer in a market setting.
it Is but usually prices for goods and services are pretty easy to find out.

Healthcare is like going to grocery store and there are no prices on anything. If you want to know how much something costs you have to call a phone number or ask the manager. That's a real pain in the *** so you just end up going with whatever you see first.

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I don't think healthcare should be free btw. But maybe the 500 dollars per month I pay for premiums should cover my healthcare.
Instead the 500 dollars per month basically does nothing. When I go to the doctor I pay 100% of the cost up until a deductible amount that I will rarely ever meet.
So that 500 per month gets me absolutely nothing.

Sent from my ONEPLUS A6013 using JazzFanz mobile app

That's how health insurance is meant to work to cover very expensive stuff. Just wait until you get old.

I complain about mine for the same reason because of how my pay structure has changed but I don't know there is much of a solution here other than coverage requirements like Obama put in place. Hell, my premiums are nearly 19 grand a year combined and I still have payed well over 50% out of pocket the last several years. Where's all the money going?
 
What do you think would happen to medical innovation if healthcare became "free"? What do you think would happen to quality? What do you think would happen to average wait times?

I know what would happen. The quality and innovation of healthcare would decline unless there is a sea change in world market structure. Right now, the U.S. market pays for the very large lion share of profits that allow pharmaceutical and manufacturers of durable medical equipment to innovate. I've mentioned this before on JF: the U.S. accounts for only 4.4% of the world population, yet we account for something like 45% of the big pharma/medical revenue (I forget the actual number that I found based on prior research, but the number is staggering).

The other downsize to "free" healthcare, is it may lower the salary's of physicians that has been a common occurrence when other 1st world country's have shifted to single payer policies, which is projected to amplify the primary care doctor shortage we have in the country (The United States will face a shortage of between 40,800 and 104,900 physicians by 2030 without any policy changes). It would be even worse if we did not have a continuous influx of immigration from high quality physicians that can get paid a lot more here. If we go to a similar single payer, we probably won't lose the high quality physicians we have (won't get paid more elsewhere), but there is a significant likelihood that the shortage of physicians we already have in this country will get even worse if high quality students choose to enter into alternate fields (and there is little to no incentive for foreign physicians to emigrate). England provides probably the best example. Their single payer system is very difficult for primary care physicians. Some are required to see 50+ patients per day for low pay (compared to U.S. doctors). England has seen a very large drop in the number of physicians they have, something like 5,000 of non-retiring physicians quit there practices there per year as I recall.

If we go to a single payer system, (and/or simply put legislation in place that these companies can't charge U.S. citizens more than the world average of other 1st world/industrialized countries, as every other 1st world country has caps on pricing), either there will be a steep decline in profits and innovation in the medical sector, or the rest of the world will start paying more for health care. The U.S. is effectively subsidizing a large portion of medical care and medical innovation for the rest of the world. I am fine for a free market economy, including health care. The fact is, in a global market that operates with interference, the U.S. model does not work for healthcare. We need a large change, and the ACA was not it. If anything, it made things worse IMO. Lots of complication and no correction of the issues that are driving up costs.

First, I think we should cap costs of pharma/medical equipment. This will be a good start. Then, I think having a similar system to medicare, where basic care is covered by insurance, but you can pay more for additional/better coverage. It would need to be done gradually.

As far as education, I like the Australian system better than ours. Costs are controlled, and loans are guaranteed at little to no interest. Once you start working a portion comes out as a deduction (similar to a tax/FICA deduction). Interest rates on student loans in the U.S. are very high.

The other solution is just to kill all the old people like Logan's Run.
 
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I don't think healthcare should be free btw. But maybe the 500 dollars per month I pay for premiums should cover my healthcare.
Instead the 500 dollars per month basically does nothing. When I go to the doctor I pay 100% of the cost up until a deductible amount that I will rarely ever meet.
So that 500 per month gets me absolutely nothing.

Sent from my ONEPLUS A6013 using JazzFanz mobile app
Free healthcare is always not free. In Germany a substantial chunk comes out of your paycheck and you do make minor co-payments. But rarely is anything declined, the costs out of my check (and I was taxed at the highest tier due to my salary) was actually less than I pay for just having insurance now (what comes out of my check + deductible). The costs here are ridiculously out of control and it's because healthcare should not be viewed as a market good or service, it should be viewed as a utility. It is not a normal good, there is almost zero price elasticity of demand, meaning that demand goes down if the price goes up... No you generally just incur debt and that is why it drives so many bankruptcies. If they double the price of your insulin do you stop taking it? Or my son's seizure medication, which by the way happened to us. One medication he took went from $100 per month to $225, and the reason was to squeeze all the profit out before the patent ran out. It's all such a convoluted load of crap.
 
it Is but usually prices for goods and services are pretty easy to find out.

Healthcare is like going to grocery store and there are no prices on anything. If you want to know how much something costs you have to call a phone number or ask the manager. That's a real pain in the *** so you just end up going with whatever you see first.

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True, but that’s still market based.
 
Free healthcare is always not free. In Germany a substantial chunk comes out of your paycheck and you do make minor co-payments. But rarely is anything declined, the costs out of my check (and I was taxed at the highest tier due to my salary) was actually less than I pay for just having insurance now (what comes out of my check + deductible). The costs here are ridiculously out of control and it's because healthcare should not be viewed as a market good or service, it should be viewed as a utility. It is not a normal good, there is almost zero price elasticity of demand, meaning that demand goes down if the price goes up... No you generally just incur debt and that is why it drives so many bankruptcies. If they double the price of your insulin do you stop taking it? Or my son's seizure medication, which by the way happened to us. One medication he took went from $100 per month to $225, and the reason was to squeeze all the profit out before the patent ran out. It's all such a convoluted load of crap.

Even worse, the FDA got the bright idea that any drug company that test drugs that have been on the market forever (but never formally tested) can have exclusive rights to that drug. So certain drugs went from $1.00 as a generic to over $100+ per month.
 
Even worse, the FDA got the bright idea that any drug company that test drugs that have been on the market forever (but never formally tested) can have exclusive rights to that drug. So certain drugs went from $1.00 as a generic to over $100+ per month.
The pharmaceutical industry is a true travesty right now.
 
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