ElRoach0; explaining and defending his beliefs(read "The Official 'Ask a Mormon' Thread" first

[Bronco70]

This is completely my own opinion, but I think one human shortcoming is trying to understand God with our limited perspective. Not that there's anything wrong with trying to understand Him, but I think we have to be realistic enough to realize that, as mere mortals, we have only our own relatively brief history and experiences to draw context from. We just plain don't know enough to be able to comprehend the complexities of God.

The way I think of it, we are still infantile in regard to our eternal progression. Science says we use just a fraction of our brain's capacity. To me, this hints that, as eternal knowledge goes, we've barely scratched the surface.

If you sit a toddler down and explain in detail how to preform brain surgery, he isn't going to be able to do it. There is a progression of learning that has to occur first.

/my rambling

 

[Siro]

Mormons and Muslims have been gaining Siro.


@Roach... wouldn't that be a trip if humanity has it backwards and we have God and Satan backwards...

I don't care if Mormons are gaining. I find them pretty pragmatic, and they are too few in number. So I can suck it up.

The march of Islam is a big concern for me however. It already has a terrible effect in Europe, and I can only hope it modernizes a lot quicker. :/

 

[Siro]

I can't disagree with you, nor would I. As much good as it's done the world(pioneering educational universities, modern hospitals, involvement in abolishing slavery, charities), it has done great evil(Spanish Inquisition, stripping natives of many, MANY nations of their culture with force of sword).

Every religion I know of bastardizes a practice of at least one previous religion and calls that their own. Just goes to show there's nothing new in the world.

So tell me.. what do you believe in?

@stoked; truly the greatest trick the dev... God ever played?

I don't see it that way. Both charity and cruelty are within human capacity, and they would have existed regardless. My problem with religion goes a lot deeper. It provides a path for justifying what would otherwise be unjustifiable. But let's not dive too deeply into that.

I don't believe in anything outside of nature. I doubt such statements even possess meaning. I believe in the use of logic and reason to evaluate verifiable data to reach valid conclusions about reality that can help us improve our lives.

 

[Stoked]

I don't see it that way. Both charity and cruelty are within human capacity, and they would have existed regardless. My problem with religion goes a lot deeper. It provides a path for justifying what would otherwise be unjustifiable. But let's not dive too deeply into that.

I don't believe in anything outside of nature. I doubt such statements even possess meaning. I believe in the use of logic and reason to evaluate verifiable data to reach valid conclusions about reality that can help us improve our lives.

Religion, like everything else, is a wonderful thing that is often twisted and subverted by men and their weaknesses.

Also Mormonism may not have the numbers to be something that worries you but they will be. I fully expect it to be come one of the main world religions along with Catholicism, Islam and Hinduism...

 

[Siro]

Religion, like everything else, is a wonderful thing that is often twisted and subverted by men and their weaknesses.

Also Mormonism may not have the numbers to be something that worries you but they will be. I fully expect it to be come one of the main world religions along with Catholicism, Islam and Hinduism...

Well, I don't. Mormonism started way too late for that to happen. Mormonism remains strong because it is concentrated in a few communities. But even that will be challenged as the world becomes more connected and advanced in other ways. For example, even something like death might be curable within a century. I don't see how any religion will survive that intact. And even if it doesn't happen, other disruptions will. So no, I'm not worried.

And we've discussed the idea of people twisting religion before. Ideas are only worth what people do with them. However, there is nothing wonderful about teaching people to worship invisible supernatural beings who would reward them for their devotion, in the first place. So religion is harmful from the get go. Twisting it actually tends to temper it. Like how Christianity is pretty tolerant today, compared to when it was at the peak of its power.

 

[JGolds]

Well, I don't. Mormonism started way too late for that to happen. Mormonism remains strong because it is concentrated in a few communities. But even that will be challenged as the world becomes more connected and advanced in other ways. For example, even something like death might be curable within a century. I don't see how any religion will survive that intact. And even if it doesn't happen, other disruptions will. So no, I'm not worried.

And we've discussed the idea of people twisting religion before. Ideas are only worth what people do with them. However, there is nothing wonderful about teaching people to worship invisible supernatural beings who would reward them for their devotion, in the first place. So religion is harmful from the get go. Twisting it actually tends to temper it. Like how Christianity is pretty tolerant today, compared to when it was at the peak of its power.

I like you as a poster, but sometimes i just dont know what to think.

 

[Siro]

I like you as a poster, but sometimes i just dont know what to think.

Science is just the name we give to the systemic pursuit of objective knowledge. I believe in science about as much as I believe in cooking. It isn't something that requires belief. I use science on daily basis to accomplish real and measurable results that anyone can use regardless of their beliefs.

 

[JGolds]

Science is just the name we give to the systemic pursuit of objective knowledge. I believe in science about as much as I believe in cooking. It isn't something that requires belief. I use science on daily basis to accomplish real and measurable results that anyone can use regardless of their beliefs.

Its true and I agree. However, how can you completely disregaurd commetns from the likes of elbert einstin saying "The more i learn of space and the univers the more he belived in a supreme creator" (paraphrased) The workins of the world and universe are like and amazeing cavas that has been perfectally ocistrated, the earth is one of the only places that can sastain life. its been said the odds of everything working out the way they did on our planet to make everything possible is like 1 in 4 trillion... (also paraphrased.)

 

[Jazz Spazz]

Just a clarification to throw at ElRoach0.

Mose 4:4
...Behold, here am I, send me, I will be thy son, and I will redeem all mankind, that one soul shall not be lost, and surely I will do it; wherefore give me thine honor.

But to better understand the part in bold.

Doctrine and Covenants 29:36
...for, behold, the devil was before Adam, for he rebelled against me, saying, Give me thine honor, which is my power; and also a third part of the ghosts of heaven turned he away from me because of their agency;

He was saying to God, to give him his honor/power or that which made him God, and that Lucifer would then be God.

Just bringing it up because it was not mentioned as far as I could see.

One other note that makes me smile, though in all probability unintentional. El means deity. You have an El in front of your name. I will not read into it, but it does make me smile.

 

[Jazz Spazz]

Science is just the name we give to the systemic pursuit of objective knowledge. I believe in science about as much as I believe in cooking. It isn't something that requires belief. I use science on daily basis to accomplish real and measurable results that anyone can use regardless of their beliefs.

Same here, I use a toaster to make toast, a frying pan to cook eggs, and a microwave to soften butter. The science, the cooking, measurable results you can eat, and I give thanks for the food I've been blessed with... and I also do this daily. I do believe it is a miracle! It's the perfect trifecta of science, cooking, and God. Were we separated at birth?

 

[Siro]

Its true and I agree. However, how can you completely disregaurd commetns from the likes of elbert einstin saying "The more i learn of space and the univers the more he belived in a supreme creator" (paraphrased) The workins of the world and universe are like and amazeing cavas that has been perfectally ocistrated, the earth is one of the only places that can sastain life. its been said the odds of everything working out the way they did on our planet to make everything possible is like 1 in 4 trillion... (also paraphrased.)

I can. Einstein was not a believer of anything you would consider religion, or any theistic version of god/s. He had a vague deistic sentiment, but so what? Newton was super religious, and he's no less brilliant than Einstein. Plenty of other brilliant people were atheist, agnostic, Muslim, Jewish, whatever. I am not intimidated by an intelligent person having a different view. I am only concerned with what can be reasonably evaluated to be a reasonable explanation. I can't tell you whether the Copenhagen Interpretation is superior to the Polycosmos as a paradigm for quantum mechanics. That information is beyond my ability to judge. But I can evaluate a specific set of beliefs. I graduated from BYU, and I learned quite a bit about Mormonism. Did I ever think for an instant that it might be true? No. And I debated those who disagree endlessly. Sure every religion has an apologetic subsystem that tries to refute the mountains of evidence (or just simple common sense) against that religion. But since I have no emotional attachment to any religious or spiritual discipline, I've always been unmoved by such attempts. Would someone be able to convince you that Zeus created the universe? I feel the same way about your religion, or any other.

 

[Stoked]

Siro I think there is something wonderful about religion and what it teaches.

Mormonism is already much wider spread than given credit for. It will continue to grow and expand as more people join it opens the door for others to come into contact with the religion.

America, Brazil, Mexico, Philippines, Canada, Tonga, Samoa, Chili, Germany, England, Australia... all have the church well established.