fishonjazz
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Following potential 2015 draftees
- Thread starter Dr. Jones
- Start date
Irregardless if you follow the logic - Locke just contradicted himself there.
- DL willing to take riskiest route.
- Locke said Kaminsky is riskiest pick
- Therefore it follows logic that DL would be willing to take Kaminsky.
QED
orangello
Well-Known Member
Please stop.
Dude, you're mixing up what DL said. The "risk" DL referred to in his podcast referred to young players for whom less information is available. The players with 3 or 4 years worth of track record are the ones that are less risky. DL said that sometimes that sometimes the best option for the organization is to take the 'riskiest' pick.
That's not what Locke said though. Locke said Kaminsky is a riskier pick than the guy with 1 year experience.
And Locke made it clear he got that info from DL.
Jazz4ever
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Are bigs generally late developers? Yes or No?
Favors didn't have a breakout season until now, his 5th year in the league and at 23 years old.
To continue from my previous post:
In running some more ratios (standing reach/height, wingspan/height), a couple more conclusions:
The only very strong outlier I found was Connaughton's standing reach to height ratio. Makes me think that the gaming-the-measurement/mismeasurement possibility is higher.
The next closest thing to an outlier is Kaminsky's wingspan/height ratio. I suspect this is caused by a skinny frame, long neck, and shortish arms (his standing reach to height ratio was also rather low, though not uniquely so). So it's true that he has short arms for his height, even if his height gives him passable, though not optimal, absolute reaches.
A few players (certainly not all) with very high wingspan/height ratios seem a bit prone to low reach/wingspan ratios for some reason (Oubre, RHJ, Ashley, S. Johnson, J. Anderson). Must be long necks/heads and very broad shoulders. Good for playing wing defense and seeing over the top -- somewhat less desirable for playing interior defense, keeping hands high on shots (both offensively/defensively).
In running some more ratios (standing reach/height, wingspan/height), a couple more conclusions:
The only very strong outlier I found was Connaughton's standing reach to height ratio. Makes me think that the gaming-the-measurement/mismeasurement possibility is higher.
The next closest thing to an outlier is Kaminsky's wingspan/height ratio. I suspect this is caused by a skinny frame, long neck, and shortish arms (his standing reach to height ratio was also rather low, though not uniquely so). So it's true that he has short arms for his height, even if his height gives him passable, though not optimal, absolute reaches.
A few players (certainly not all) with very high wingspan/height ratios seem a bit prone to low reach/wingspan ratios for some reason (Oubre, RHJ, Ashley, S. Johnson, J. Anderson). Must be long necks/heads and very broad shoulders. Good for playing wing defense and seeing over the top -- somewhat less desirable for playing interior defense, keeping hands high on shots (both offensively/defensively).
orangello
Well-Known Member
Very true.
Pretty sure it was, though if anyone has more info, please let me know. I like Locke, but he has a tendency to read into things (maybe based on other knowledge he has -- or just because it's a pretty common thing to do for most of us).
I think he's just down on the idea of Kaminsky.
EDIT: check the Locked on Jazz timeline: https://weareutahjazz.com/lockedonjazz/
Locke heard the DJ & PK interview, wrote some thoughts about it, then elaborated on those thoughts on the air (the podcast that Catchall referred to a couple of pages back).
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Jazz4ever
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His standing reach is average for a center, it's his weight that is more of a concern to me. At 7'1" and 231 lbs that's a high center of gravity and would get tossed around inside. If he can't make it as a stretch PF, then ya, there is some bust potential.
So is this again a case of Locke reading into something that isn't there?
You listen and decide. I think he did a bit of it. But again, that's a pretty human tendency. I'm not going to get bent out of shape over it.
Ok irregardless of what Locke said...
What do you guys think about the Cody Zeller / Frank Kaminsky comparison?
- Zeller by accounts was hitting 3's after 3's after 3's in workouts impressing CHA
- Zeller was younger
- Zeller was quicker and more athletic
- Similar size/length/etc
- Zeller has had limited success in the NBA thus far
Would Kaminsky be better or worse than Zeller when he enters the NBA?
What do you guys think about the Cody Zeller / Frank Kaminsky comparison?
- Zeller by accounts was hitting 3's after 3's after 3's in workouts impressing CHA
- Zeller was younger
- Zeller was quicker and more athletic
- Similar size/length/etc
- Zeller has had limited success in the NBA thus far
Would Kaminsky be better or worse than Zeller when he enters the NBA?
seattlejazzfan
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It's a poor one. Kaminsky basically does everything better than Zeller. And Frank was the best player on a final four team. Cody Zeller isn't even the best player in his family.
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It might have something to do with their frame. Narrow frame would mean lower wingspan, even if they have long arms(which would measure as short wingspan and long reach).
Because I can't help myself:
I added together wingspan/height and standing reach/height ratios/rankings to come up with an idea of who really has the long arms that may allow them to play above their listed height. (As Jazz4ever notes, this does not address the issue of absolute length -- just who may play taller or shorter than their height based on reach measurements. A player may have adequate total length even with short arms if they're relatively tall for their position.)
On the long arms side of things are players such as: Christmas, Qualls, Alexander, Looney, and de Paula, McCullough, Rozier, Upshaw, Harrell, and RJH.
On the short arms side are: Kaminsky (the shortest in comparison to height by quite a bit, actually), Harvey, Aa. Harrison, Connaughton, Wright, and Dekker.
Out of 63 measured at the combine, on this measurement prospects of particular interest to us ranked:
4 Looney
8 McCullough
14 RJH
16 Wood
17 Payne
18 Turner
23 Russell (Do I have to give up the dream now?)
30 Oubre
36 Johnson
38 J. Anderson
40 Portis
41 Lyles
43 Grant
45 Booker
52 Dekker
63 Kaminsky
From the very top end of the scale to the very bottom (ie Looney vs. Kaminsky) this means about a 7.5" difference for 7-footers in effective arm length or a 6.5" inch difference for 6-footers. The difference between the #20 and #40 ranks are about 1.75" and 1.5" respectively.
I added together wingspan/height and standing reach/height ratios/rankings to come up with an idea of who really has the long arms that may allow them to play above their listed height. (As Jazz4ever notes, this does not address the issue of absolute length -- just who may play taller or shorter than their height based on reach measurements. A player may have adequate total length even with short arms if they're relatively tall for their position.)
On the long arms side of things are players such as: Christmas, Qualls, Alexander, Looney, and de Paula, McCullough, Rozier, Upshaw, Harrell, and RJH.
On the short arms side are: Kaminsky (the shortest in comparison to height by quite a bit, actually), Harvey, Aa. Harrison, Connaughton, Wright, and Dekker.
Out of 63 measured at the combine, on this measurement prospects of particular interest to us ranked:
4 Looney
8 McCullough
14 RJH
16 Wood
17 Payne
18 Turner
23 Russell (Do I have to give up the dream now?)
30 Oubre
36 Johnson
38 J. Anderson
40 Portis
41 Lyles
43 Grant
45 Booker
52 Dekker
63 Kaminsky
From the very top end of the scale to the very bottom (ie Looney vs. Kaminsky) this means about a 7.5" difference for 7-footers in effective arm length or a 6.5" inch difference for 6-footers. The difference between the #20 and #40 ranks are about 1.75" and 1.5" respectively.
Yeah but Kaminsky is also a full 2 years older entering the draft?
If we're gonna have a fair comparison, then we'd have to compare Cody entering the draft VS Kaminsky 2 years ago. Can you still say that Cody "does everything better"?
I'd expect Kaminsky to be better off the bat. He's clearly more skilled upon leaving college. But you'd also have to believe (simply on age) that Zeller has more room to grow as a player from what they were/are at draft night. That's not to say that Kaminsky couldn't develop more than Zeller does, just that the odds aren't in his favor.
But Zeller has been developing nicely if you look at the stats closer. He may end up as a good player yet (even though he still hasn't made a 3-pointer in either college or pros), though worse than probably expected for a #4 pick. He and Kaminsky are only 6 months apart. I have to imagine that Zeller got by far the better of him when they were both freshmen and sophomores in the Big 10. And Zeller will probably have the advantage in head-to-head NBA matchups in Kaminsky's rookie season. After that, it's where their work ethic and potential takes them.
Handlogten's Heros
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So Locke doesn't like Frank and it's fairly clear. He made a comment about him during the tournament that was kind of snarky as well. Yet at the end of the podcast he say we might consider trading for old man Channing frye and his 8 Mill per year contract. Says we could trade a second round pick for it. Frye had some rather serious health problems and is right around the area of his career where he's going to take a sharp down turn. It seems really weird that Locke would doubt Frank but want Frye... After all Frye was a 4 year guy... Who wasn't as dominant as Frank was this last year.
I think we are all reading into lockes comments too much. DL also mentioned maybe we don't want any more development projects right now... Frank would be a lot closer to being a contributor than the other players we are considering.
I think we are all reading into lockes comments too much. DL also mentioned maybe we don't want any more development projects right now... Frank would be a lot closer to being a contributor than the other players we are considering.