Gay Nightclub mass shooting -- Orlando, Florida

[Deleted member 848]

No people that are politicizing it are trying to control the narrative of a tragedy. They are using fear to bypass people's reason and their values. It's exactly how you get someone like Trump elected president. We should listen to the victims and to the investigators we should not be using public fear to further arguments we were already making.

- Find me a single politician/journalist/speaker with any public venue who wines about politicizing tragedies that isn't trying to advance a political agenda of their own with said tragedy
- the latter part of this excerpt is in zero disagreement with any of my posts in this thread. Feel free to post proof that asserts otherwise

Please do not water down our values to genetic fatalism. It is that thinking that started the eugenics movement and all the horrors of the 30's and 40's.

What the **** are you talking about?

No it's because it's been stigmatized as immoral. Fate is not a good argument to show that there is nothing immoral about being LGBTQ. Being born a certain way has never stopped people from dehumanizing that group. In fact I would argue that it makes it easier. It makes those people defective, truly other than. It makes it easier for people to justify murder, sterilization, etc. There are plenty of very good arguments that are consistent with our values in a liberal democracy and that draw on our history that has steered toward more tolerance for both why it is not immoral to be LGBTQ and why people should accept them as fellows.

Your point about choiceness attributes being exploited for stigmatization is a great one (tons of examples, as you've mentioned). However, you're wrong in terms of how it pertains to homosexuality. The immorality of homosexuality of course is the reason for its centuries-long smearing & concealment-- however, why is it considered immoral? Particularly in the past century, the treatment of homosexuality as a non-natural condition, and something that one isn't born with, was one of if not THE main justification behind why it was considered so dissonant with a healthy natural human being. THAT was what my post was asserting. You're talking past that point and attacking points that I never really proposed. Bizarre.

I really hate this argument. Attacking it from another angle, there are a whole host of really terrible things that we would have to accept as moral if we accept this argument.

Examples?

I will have no part of it. It just isn't immoral to be gay and it doesn't matter if someone chooses to be or was born that way.

Another bizarre point made. I never, ever said that homosexuality would be in any way intrinsically immoral if it was a behaviour that was chosen. Insisting that my points made above necessitate this conclusion is facile

 

[Boris]

- Find me a single politician/journalist/speaker with any public venue who wines about politicizing tragedies that isn't trying to advance a political agenda of their own with said tragedy
- the latter part of this excerpt is in zero disagreement with any of my posts in this thread. Feel free to post proof that asserts otherwise




What the **** are you talking about?



Your point about choiceness attributes being exploited for stigmatization is a great one (tons of examples, as you've mentioned). However, you're wrong in terms of how it pertains to homosexuality. The immorality of homosexuality of course is the reason for its centuries-long smearing & concealment-- however, why is it considered immoral? Particularly in the past century, the treatment of homosexuality as a non-natural condition, and something that one isn't born with, was one of if not THE main justification behind why it was considered so dissonant with a healthy natural human being. THAT was what my post was asserting. You're talking past that point and attacking points that I never really proposed. Bizarre.




Examples?



Another bizarre point made. I never, ever said that homosexuality would be in any way intrinsically immoral if it was a behaviour that was chosen. Insisting that my points made above necessitate this conclusion is facile

All the speakers here except you the thriller and maybe a couple more trolls I cannot remember. Nobody else has a axe to grind fars I can tell.

 

[Deleted member 848]

cute that Boris keeps responding to & tagging me in posts, thinking I'll actually ever engage the content of his posts.

 

[Boris]

[MENTION=249]NAOS[/MENTION] NOPE

 

[jimmy eat jazz]

I'm not being condescending but in order to achieve this we need people to actually do something and not just rely on praying to whom ever their god is. Violence and hate can be eradicated, it's not in our DNA as a species to want to kill people, or turn our backs on people. It's usually your upbringing and the messages you hear as a kid turning into a young adult than by the time you can start thinking for yourself your brainwashed into hating a certain group or groups of people that you that you know nothing about.

Given the propensity toward violence among the human species since recorded history, I'm not sure I understand an argument that 'killing is not in our DNA.' Then why do we do it so much? Why have there always been wars? Why is human history littered with accounts of state-sponsored, institutionalized killing?

It seems to me that there IS definitely something about our makeup as humans that incline us as a species toward violence and killing. My hypothesis is that its roots are more in tribalism and tribal identity (and what that implies for how we view people not of our tribe), but I suspect it's much more complex than this.

 

[Gameface]

Given the propensity toward violence among the human species since recorded history, I'm not sure I understand an argument that 'killing is not in our DNA.' Then why do we do it so much? Why have there always been wars? Why is human history littered with accounts of state-sponsored, institutionalized killing?

It seems to me that there IS definitely something about our makeup as humans that incline us as a species toward violence and killing. My hypothesis is that its roots are more in tribalism and tribal identity (and what that implies for how we view people not of our tribe), but I suspect it's much more complex than this.

Why do we do it so much?

I guess I've been missing out. I've never killed anyone.

How many people have you killed, JEJ?

Yeah, killing happens. Happens more than it should. But if killing was so common we wouldn't even really take notice of this latest tragedy.

 

[jimmy eat jazz]

You are right, there is no good in just sitting on our asses praying. We have to take action every time we face the evil. But as simple folk, we cannot fight them back like they do. I see ignorance as a root for this kind of evil. I'm sure every person can do their best to fight that.

Saying that one is praying for victims of a tragedy is an easy to say cliche'd cop out. Unless someone can show me any evidence that praying actually accomplishes anything, praying is done mostly for the benefit of the prayer giver, perhaps to make him/her better about him/herself. My guess also is that most of those who say they are praying are not actually doing so. It's a cost-free, but public method, for getting compassion brownie points. Just so trite and so useless.

I should add as well that it is also at times a highly cynical and insincere public expression of solidarity. So now we have the spectacle of right-wing culture warriors (e.g, Mike Huckabee or Ted Cruz), who have devoted years to demonizing gays, peddling gross and harmful stereotypes about them, and fomenting hatred towards them tweeting that they are 'praying' for the victims of this tragedy. Yeah right. As the parent of an LGTB child, I'd like to tell them to take their faux compassion and shove it up their bigoted arses.

 

[jimmy eat jazz]

I just don't get it. I mean, look, I disagree with homosexuality, sex before marriage, etc etc. I'm one of those nasty fundamentalist Christians. I'm what's labeled as a radical Chrisfian. Never, ever, ever have I wanted to kill somebody because I disagree with how they live their life. I don't even want to punch them, verbally abuse them, anything like that. Why is it so hard to just treat a person decently? I can disagree with somebody and still get along with them. It's not actually that hard.

I'm curious, what does it mean to 'disagree with homosexuality?' What are the practical, logical extensions of this disagreement? What are your expectations about how homosexuals should behave in order to not earn your disagreement? Deny their sexuality? Commit themselves to a life absent romantic love or sexual expression? Act on their nature but do so only privately? I'm asking seriously.

 

[addictionary]

Saying that one is praying for victims of a tragedy is an easy to say cliche'd cop out. Unless someone can show me any evidence that praying actually accomplishes anything, praying is done mostly for the benefit of the prayer giver, perhaps to make him/her better about him/herself. My guess also is that most of those who say they are praying are not actually doing so. It's a cost-free, but public method, for getting compassion brownie points. Just so trite and so useless.

Yes, most of the time it is. And I hate it when political figures do it for the reason you say, or maybe many other simple people do it for the self-comforting reasons or brownie points. Nietzsche used to believe that even most of our most generous actions are actually motivated by extremely selfish motives. And I agree with him to a point. But I also see humanity as a big one body of organism. Like that enormous plant that looks like a series of bushes but actually is only one plant growing out of one sole root. And when we feel for each other, it actually means something. We are connected in some weird way. At least one part of our brain or soul feels the pain of our bad doings when things like that happen. And bad things have bad consequences for living things that use a space on a habitat. So if this organism has an ill side, the organism has to cure it. If it is cancer and cannot be cured, cut it off.

 

[moevillini]

Reverend Sharpton here makes it sound like gay mass shootings happen all the time. Nice hyperbole. This is the first gay shooting I have heard of.

Also, Since when is religion chosen? Billions on this planet are born into Catholicism and Islamic. Indoctrinated sense childbirth. Those people never chose anymore than a gay chose.

Note to Boris: It wasn't only the Jews that went to the gas chambers in Germany under Hilter. Homosexuals and suspected homosexuals of any religious affiliation were exterminated in large numbers. That's just one example for you.

ok, so maybe that wasn't a shooting - but let's not split hairs.

 

[Boris]

Note to Boris: It wasn't only the Jews that went to the gas chambers in Germany under Hilter. Homosexuals and suspected homosexuals of any religious affiliation were exterminated in large numbers. That's just one example for you.

ok, so maybe that wasn't a shooting - but let's not split hairs.

Care to remind us how long ago your Hitler reference was and how it is relevant to this situation?

 

[Stoked]

Care to remind us how long ago your Hitler reference was and how it is relevant to this situation?

It provides historical context and shows that oppression and violence towards this segment of society is not as isolated as your post indicated.