Gordon Hayward: Pull Up/Drive Weekly Update

[NUMBERICA]

Hayward seems to be pretty universally more desired than Evan Turner and I can't figure out why UNLESS you're comparing them as complementary players (at which point, why are you dropping so much coin on a complementary player anyway?).

 

[Jazz4ever]

Hayward seems to be pretty universally more desired than Evan Turner and I can't figure out why UNLESS you're comparing them as complementary players (at which point, why are you dropping so much coin on a complementary player anyway?).

I guess it depends on if you think Hayward is a legit second or third (complimentary) option. Turner is a third option at best, but Gordon is potentially good enough to be a #2. We will never have the chance to find out that out before having to pay him. From the eye test, Gordon has significantly improved since last year. His true shooting is holding up fairly well and his turnovers are not that bad given his usage. Turner is also 2 years older than Gordon.

 

[NUMBERICA]

I guess it depends on if you think Hayward is a legit second or third (complimentary) option. Turner is a third option at best, but Gordon is potentially good enough to be a #2.

Gordon is better scoring off the ball while Turner has always been an on-ball player. If Gordon is better playing off the ball but worse on it, then why should he obviously get more money/attention?

 

[Deleted member 848]

Gordon is better scoring off the ball while Turner has always been an on-ball player. If Gordon is better playing off the ball but worse on it, then why should he obviously get more money/attention?

I would imagine that off-ball players tend to be more effective as tertiary options, I answer your question. If you're not primary option, the ball won't be in your hands as much-- so if you can't play off a main option effectively, then your productivity will suffer. Not going off of examples or stats here-- just trying to think about it logically, I suppose.

 

[Deleted member 848]

Couldn't that be said of any player?

Even if this is true, how does it weaken my point? Paul George progressed from being an average defender in college to the All-NBA first team-- and if you think he could have had the same progression with a coach like Mike D'Antoni, then you are mistaken.

 

[Deleted member 848]

Wait what? If he takes them, he should make them....

Re-read the thread. My point is thoroughly explained (and understood by other posters as well).

 

[NUMBERICA]

I would imagine that off-ball players tend to be more effective as tertiary options, I answer your question. If you're not primary option, the ball won't be in your hands as much-- so if you can't play off a main option effectively, then your productivity will suffer. Not going off of examples or stats here-- just trying to think about it logically, I suppose.

I'm all about tertiary (is this word being used right?) scoring, but you can get that for less than the max (or close). I still say a good rule of thumb is that if you're a perimeter player making 8-digits, you'd better be pretty damn effective at GETTING your team buckets, not just making them.

 

[GVC]

I'm all about tertiary (is this word being used right?) scoring, but you can get that for less than the max (or close). I still say a good rule of thumb is that if you're a perimeter player making 8-digits, you'd better be pretty damn effective at GETTING your team buckets, not just making them.

The drive statistics (which should also capture pick and rolls based on the definition) show that Gordo does a pretty good job of finding his teammates off the bounce. 14th in team points per drive (among the 52 players with 40+ drives) despite being surrounded by ****ty shooters. That pull up is the difference between being a very good secondary ball handler and being an off-ball player.

 

[GVC]

Week 4

Games: 3

Drives: 15
Gordo Points on Drives: 8
Team Points on Drives: 18
Team Points per Drive: 1.2

2-pt Pull Ups: 4-13 (.308)
3-pt Pull Ups: 0-2 (.000)
Points per Pull Up: 0.533


Total (through 11/23/13)

Games: 14

Drives: 94
Gordo Points on Drives: 47 (.432 FG%)
Team Points on Drives: 113
Team Points per Drive: 1.202

2-pt Pull Ups: 32-83 (.386)
3-pt Pull Ups: 3-15 (.200)
Points per Pull Up: 0.745


​Ranks

12th in Total Drives (Monta Ellis, 153)
19th in Drives per Game (among players with 7+ Games Played; Monta Ellis, 10.9)
33rd in FG% on Drives (among 52 players with 50+ Total Drives; LeBron James, .688)
18th in Team Points per Drive (among 52 players with 50+ Total Drives; Reggie Jackson, 1.383)

23rd in Total Pull Ups per game (Steph Curry, 13.8)
33rd in Points per Pull Up (among 49 players averaging 5+ Pull Ups per Game with a minimum of 7 games played; Kevin Durant, 1.08)

 

[Litany]

Even if this is true, how does it weaken my point? Paul George progressed from being an average defender in college to the All-NBA first team-- and if you think he could have had the same progression with a coach like Mike D'Antoni, then you are mistaken.

Careful, you might derail GVCs current agenda.

 

[GVC]

Careful, you might derail GVCs current agenda.

Informative as always.

 

[franklin]

Gordon is better scoring off the ball while Turner has always been an on-ball player. If Gordon is better playing off the ball but worse on it, then why should he obviously get more money/attention?

I'm all about tertiary (is this word being used right?) scoring, but you can get that for less than the max (or close). I still say a good rule of thumb is that if you're a perimeter player making 8-digits, you'd better be pretty damn effective at GETTING your team buckets, not just making them.

Tertiary scoring in an offense can be your primary weapon even though it requires some semblance of first and second option structure. Allen, Peja, Korver, & Reggie were all off-ball, primary-tertiary hybrids. Gordon overall is somewhere between Peja-Korver and Reggie-Allen, with way better d than Peja and potentially better d than Korver, and significantly better driving and passing abilities than both.

Gordon is not being used correctly, we all know this. He's being given the opportunity to prove his weaknesses are going away (and failing miserably at proving that). His off-ball strengths were already well known.