Got into a pretty heated debate with my wife last night about race.

[gandalfe]

Lmao at black schools being subpar. Maybe in the South the funding is not there but in NJ and probably much more of the NE that’s laughable. The schools that are “subpar” are subpar because of the parents. That’s it. I’d say the students but that’s not fair to them.

School quality, in as much as it is determined by financial factors, are always going to be in more well to do neighborhoods. And the more well to do neighborhoods, of course, are whiter, in part because of the practice of redlining, but also due to other forms of oppression against minorities. So, sure, there are always the stories about the scrappy school teacher who teaches well in spite of the obstacles, but those stories are memorable because they are the exception. And often fictional.

 

[One Brow]

And you’re basing this off of?

Familiarity with the schools locally, knowledge of how property taxes work, etc.

 

[NAOS]

Familiarity with the schools locally, knowledge of how property taxes work, etc.

Isn’t Wes a teacher? Still loling

 

[Keefe]

I’ll put it another way. You could take the teachers from one of the best high schools in the state and put them at Trenton High School or the like and it would make little to no difference.

 

[One Brow]

I’ll put it another way. You could take the teachers from one of the best high schools in the state and put them at Trenton High School or the like and it would make little to no difference.

I would agree that it would make only a small difference.

 

[Beer]

I would agree that it would make only a small difference.

And I feel like we, or I, have went off into the weeds to the point of my original posts. There are so many different pieces to this puzzle but it feels like the media, or society in general, want to latch onto a few of the louder more sensational talking points and act like they are the absolute cause of these issues. Especially when it can paint one side of the argument evil. When in reality there are 100 different pieces, and usually it's the less sexy ones that imo at least, are the real issues that need to be fixed.

For example, family support would do a whole hell of a lot more to fix the minority education issue than pumping more money into a school that is failing. Now that itself takes us down another rabbit hole as to why the family isn't as supportive, a lot of which is caused by systematic racism over the years, war on drugs, etc .... but also 66% of black families are single parent households (compared to 41% hispanic and 33% white) which makes it very difficult for that single parent to be active in their child's education. And not all of that is due to white oppression, sure it plays a large part but at some point you have to take ownership and change things you can control. If you are waiting for white people and or the govt to fix things you are going to be waiting for an eternity and you will never get out of your bad situation. Never ever ever.

We as white people need to recognize, and I do, that we have put the black race at a serious disadvantage over the last 300 years, and do what we can to help. But a group as a whole can only be lifted so much by outside forces. If they want things to change, it has to be up to them, and us supporting them along the way.

Sorry, if you think I'm a racist. I'm not. I just want solutions to be found and uncomfortable conversations with real data and information is vital to that.

Edit: and in more urban area's that 66% rises to almost 80%. Not good and is recipe for continued failings.

 

[NAOS]

Has the word “capitalism” appeared in this thread once? If we’re looking for nuances and branching points in our phenomenon of systemic racism, then a study of capitalism is necessary. While white hands have attempted to grasp and hold the reins of our capitalism, it is not true that those hands (or those of any other potential human aggregate/political block) entirely control its movements and transformations.

Not only does capitalism play a major role in producing the outcomes we continue to see, but it also plays a role in our forgetting history, and trying to come up with solutions that are ignorant of important historical causes that should be addressed... that is, if we actually want to successfully transform society.

 

[Beer]

Has the word “capitalism” appeared in this thread once? If we’re looking for nuances and branching points in our phenomenon of systemic racism, then a study of capitalism is necessary. While white hands have attempted to grasp and hold the reins of our capitalism, it is not true that those hands (or those of any other potential human aggregate/political block) entirely control its movements and transformations.

Not only does capitalism play a major role in producing the outcomes we continue to see, but it also plays a role in our forgetting history, and trying to come up with solutions that are ignorant of important historical causes that should be addressed... that is, if we actually want to successfully transform society.

IDK, I'm not a fan of capitalist ideals but I also am not a fan of the counter-point to capitalism. So I'm not sure where that leaves me or you on it. It is an interesting convo for sure.

 

[NAOS]

IDK, I'm not a fan of capitalist ideals but I also am not a fan of the counter-point to capitalism. So I'm not sure where that leaves me or you on it. It is an interesting convo for sure.

I don’t think the discussion needs to be framed in binary terms: capitalism or counter-capitalism. The history of capitalism shows a spectrum of rapaciousness.

New Zealand has pointed their whole market-based system toward different goals. I’ll be watching.

Runaway accumulation and deregulation are not good ideas.

 

[One Brow]

For example, family support would do a whole hell of a lot more to fix the minority education issue than pumping more money into a school that is failing. Now that itself takes us down another rabbit hole as to why the family isn't as supportive, a lot of which is caused by systematic racism over the years, war on drugs, etc .... but also 66% of black families are single parent households (compared to 41% hispanic and 33% white) which makes it very difficult for that single parent to be active in their child's education.

This is focused on a very narrow conception of family. If a "single parent" is living with their mother, their sibling, etc., they still have family support. There is also greater community support in urban areas than suburban, from what I can tell. One of the reasons that black middle class families don't build wealth as much as white middle-class families is that the black families are more likely to help out other people in their neighborhood.

Sorry, if you think I'm a racist. I'm not. I just want solutions to be found and uncomfortable conversations with real data and information is vital to that.

We're all raised with racist notions, and we all struggle with them.

Going back to the original post, in addition to what people have said about your grandfather not having the opportunity to lease that land if he were black, did you realize that successful black businesses were also frequently destroyed or taken over by whites after they became successful?

 

[Beer]

This is focused on a very narrow conception of family. If a "single parent" is living with their mother, their sibling, etc., they still have family support. There is also greater community support in urban areas than suburban, from what I can tell. One of the reasons that black middle class families don't build wealth as much as white middle-class families is that the black families are more likely to help out other people in their neighborhood.



We're all raised with racist notions, and we all struggle with them.

Going back to the original post, in addition to what people have said about your grandfather not having the opportunity to lease that land if he were black, did you realize that successful black businesses were also frequently destroyed or taken over by whites after they became successful?

I'm not saying they don't have support or their family doesn't care about them. I'm saying it is so so so much harder for a single parent to have the time and energy to dedicate to helping a child with schoolwork than a more traditional family. If you are working 2 jobs, or working nights, its going to be extremely difficult for a single parent to dedicate significant time and energy into homework, testing, outside of class learning, etc .... And I'm sure the neighborhood cares about each other, but once again, a neighbor isn't going to take an active interest in a neighbors kids schoolwork 99% of the time.

As far as your 2nd point, sure, maybe, possibly. Would like to see anything substantial back that up though.

And as far as your last paragraph, yes I am aware of that happening. I do not believe it was a constant though. Maybe not an outlier either but not a majority occurence either.

 

[Saint Cy of JFC]

And I feel like we, or I, have went off into the weeds to the point of my original posts. There are so many different pieces to this puzzle but it feels like the media, or society in general, want to latch onto a few of the louder more sensational talking points and act like they are the absolute cause of these issues. Especially when it can paint one side of the argument evil. When in reality there are 100 different pieces, and usually it's the less sexy ones that imo at least, are the real issues that need to be fixed.

For example, family support would do a whole hell of a lot more to fix the minority education issue than pumping more money into a school that is failing. Now that itself takes us down another rabbit hole as to why the family isn't as supportive, a lot of which is caused by systematic racism over the years, war on drugs, etc .... but also 66% of black families are single parent households (compared to 41% hispanic and 33% white) which makes it very difficult for that single parent to be active in their child's education. And not all of that is due to white oppression, sure it plays a large part but at some point you have to take ownership and change things you can control. If you are waiting for white people and or the govt to fix things you are going to be waiting for an eternity and you will never get out of your bad situation. Never ever ever.

We as white people need to recognize, and I do, that we have put the black race at a serious disadvantage over the last 300 years, and do what we can to help. But a group as a whole can only be lifted so much by outside forces. If they want things to change, it has to be up to them, and us supporting them along the way.

Sorry, if you think I'm a racist. I'm not. I just want solutions to be found and uncomfortable conversations with real data and information is vital to that.

Edit: and in more urban area's that 66% rises to almost 80%. Not good and is recipe for continued failings.

Youre either racist or extremely stupid. Take your pick.

 

[Saint Cy of JFC]

I'm not saying they don't have support or their family doesn't care about them. I'm saying it is so so so much harder for a single parent to have the time and energy to dedicate to helping a child with schoolwork than a more traditional family. If you are working 2 jobs, or working nights, its going to be extremely difficult for a single parent to dedicate significant time and energy into homework, testing, outside of class learning, etc .... And I'm sure the neighborhood cares about each other, but once again, a neighbor isn't going to take an active interest in a neighbors kids schoolwork 99% of the time.

As far as your 2nd point, sure, maybe, possibly. Would like to see anything substantial back that up though.

And as far as your last paragraph, yes I am aware of that happening. I do not believe it was a constant though. Maybe not an outlier either but not a majority occurence either.

So you're just guessing?

 

[Saint Cy of JFC]

IDK, I'm not a fan of capitalist ideals but I also am not a fan of the counter-point to capitalism. So I'm not sure where that leaves me or you on it. It is an interesting convo for sure.

YEah bruh, we can tell from your post that nuance and thinking about issues critically isnt your strong suit.

 

[Saint Cy of JFC]

Like dont even ****ing bring up family support in the black community if you arent going to discuss THE CLEAR FACTS of unequal punishments for the same offenses and how the War on Drugs has decimated the black family and then act like "Well it's up to them".

 

[Saint Cy of JFC]

Beer: But black people need to take ownership...

 

[Saint Cy of JFC]

Cant wait til Beer's wife sleeps with a black guy to satiate her white guilt.

 

[NAOS]

Cant wait til Beer's wife sleeps with a black guy to satiate her white guilt.

“Comfortable conversations” and “real data”.... as if either of these things are universal/culture-free. As if white folks haven’t had their way on both of these issues, continuously.

 

[One Brow]

I'm not saying they don't have support or their family doesn't care about them. I'm saying it is so so so much harder for a single parent to have the time and energy to dedicate to helping a child with schoolwork than a more traditional family. If you are working 2 jobs, or working nights, its going to be extremely difficult for a single parent to dedicate significant time and energy into homework, testing, outside of class learning, etc ....

I'm not sure why two married parents have more time for this than, say, a mother and a grandmother. Please explain that to me in more detail.

And I'm sure the neighborhood cares about each other, but once again, a neighbor isn't going to take an active interest in a neighbors kids schoolwork 99% of the time.

My personal observations the black community says otherwise, at least for the kids doing well in school.

As far as your 2nd point, sure, maybe, possibly. Would like to see anything substantial back that up though.

Project Implicit

implicit.harvard.edu

And as far as your last paragraph, yes I am aware of that happening. I do not believe it was a constant though. Maybe not an outlier either but not a majority occurence either.

Even if it only occurred to, say, 5% of black businesses, don't you think just knowing it could happen would act as a damper on the desire to expand a moderately successful business?

 

[latin jazz]

Lmao at black schools being subpar. Maybe in the South the funding is not there but in NJ and probably much more of the NE that’s laughable. The schools that are “subpar” are subpar because of the parents. That’s it. I’d say the students but that’s not fair to them.

And you’re basing this off of?

Oh my. As a teacher you should know. Schools rely on taxes, in particular property taxes. Due to spatial inequality in US, its easy to the see the link between where you live/school district quality.

I lived in Cambridge, MA and had the opportunity to participate in some projects in disadvantaged neighboorhods in the Boston area. Schools were a big big big problem: look at US Census Data (or other reliable surveys) and you will clealy notice a trend in black neighboorhods : lower school funding; lower school enrollment; lower educational attainment; higher school dropouts; higher teenager incarceration rates; higher teenage pregnancy rates, etc. All of these issues are correlated.