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Hardy Says Collins is a 5

Handlogten's Heros said:
Hard disagree on the PG's being PnR guys. None shoot well off the dribble... JC has done okay in the past but struggled this year... and none are great passers. Its just an easy play to defend.
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Well, what are they then? They are not very good, but they are all guys who want to dominate the ball but also cannot create a shot on their own. For all of them, their preferred way to play is in PnR. THT is easily the worst shooter, but also by far the most reliant on PnR imo.
 
All I know is I’d be willing to trade Collins to some contender for a 2034 top31 to 59 protected. I don’t see us trading him to anyone for any value what so ever. Why didn’t the jazz see this as the hawks were pleading us to take him for Rudy Gay. Danny is even more senile than me. He’s lost his damn mind.
 
KqWIN said:
Well, what are they then? They are not very good, but they are all guys who want to dominate the ball but also cannot create a shot on their own. For all of them, their preferred way to play is in PnR. THT is easily the worst shooter, but also by far the most reliant on PnR imo.
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LOL so because they suck at other things they are good in PnR?
 
Handlogten's Heros said:
LOL so because they suck at other things they are good in PnR?
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I literally said they are bad at it. Did you just choose to skip that both times? I don't know why you outwardly ignore that. Literally spelled out in plain english and you still ignore it and say I said the direct opposite.

If you brought a random G-League PG who is a PnR in the NBA and he's not good enough, he's still a PnR player he's just not good at it. We have PnR players, they just aren't good.
 
KqWIN said:
I literally said they are bad at it. Did you just choose to skip that both times? I don't know why you outwardly ignore that. Literally spelled out in plain english and you still ignore it and say I said the direct opposite.

If you brought a random G-League PG who is a PnR in the NBA and he's not good enough, he's still a PnR player he's just not good at it. We have PnR players, they just aren't good.
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Yeah I read it. I didn't think I really needed to clarify we don't have good pick and roll players when I said we don't have PnR players but sure. You asked a question about what they are... well if they aren't good at pick and roll and thats the thing they are best at... you answer the question.

the original statement was a response to why I don't think its really going to work to give Collins a bunch of PnR... if the ball handlers suck at it then what will be the result?

If I said Kirilenko is not a shooter... I don't care that he prefers to score that way... if he sucks at it... he is not a shooter.
 
Handlogten's Heros said:
Yeah I read it. I didn't think I really needed to clarify we don't have good pick and roll players when I said we don't have PnR players but sure. You asked a question about what they are... well if they aren't good at pick and roll and thats the thing they are best at... you answer the question.

the original statement was a response to why I don't think its really going to work to give Collins a bunch of PnR... if the ball handlers suck at it then what will be the result?

If I said Kirilenko is not a shooter... I don't care that he prefers to score that way... if he sucks at it... he is not a shooter.
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To me, being a PnR means you play PnR....doesn't mean you are good at it. That's what was meant by, "they are PnR players, they are just bad at it". If you read those words, I have no idea how you could interpret that as me saying they are good at PnR. I don't care about semantics....but if you're going to use your own definition of what it means to be a PnR player, please do not spin it to try and make me say the direct opposite of what I had said. If I say they are bad at it, it probably means I think that they are bad at it.

With that in place, what is the result if you do not put them in PnR? It's also bad. I don't see the alternative that works better. The guards are all ball dominant players who are not effective off the ball. For John Collins in particular, I think it's quite clear that his skillset is best utilized as a PnR man. When I look at this group of guys, I think the optimal way to play (again, compared to themselves), is to put John Collins in PnR with one of our guards. This is especially true when Collins is playing the 5 without Kessler. He's not playing with Trae Young, but playing without a big should also open up these PnR opportunities that he did not get playing alongside Capela and Okongwu.
 
KqWIN said:
To me, being a PnR means you play PnR....doesn't mean you are good at it. That's what was meant by, "they are PnR players, they are just bad at it". If you read those words, I have no idea how you could interpret that as me saying they are good at PnR. I don't care about semantics....but if you're going to use your own definition of what it means to be a PnR player, please do not spin it to try and make me say the direct opposite of what I had said. If I say they are bad at it, it probably means I think that they are bad at it.
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If I say a guy is a shooter it means he is a good capable shooter. If I say a guy isn't a PnR player just go ahead and insert the good in there... its not that hard.

KqWIN said:
With that in place, what is the result if you do not put them in PnR? It's also bad. I don't see the alternative that works better. The guards are all ball dominant players who are not effective off the ball. For John Collins in particular, I think it's quite clear that his skillset is best utilized as a PnR man. When I look at this group of guys, I think the optimal way to play (again, compared to themselves), is to put John Collins in PnR with one of our guards. This is especially true when Collins is playing the 5 without Kessler. He's not playing with Trae Young, but playing without a big should also open up these PnR opportunities that he did not get playing alongside Capela and Okongwu.
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Getting good PnR opportunities will depend on the quality of the players feeding the roll man... again not that hard. None of the guys are well equipped to provide that.
 
Handlogten's Heros said:
If I say a guy is a shooter it means he is a good capable shooter. If I say a guy isn't a PnR player just go ahead and insert the good in there... its not that hard.


Getting good PnR opportunities will depend on the quality of the players feeding the roll man... again not that hard. None of the guys are well equipped to provide that.
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You can say it means whatever you want to yourself. I am not the police. But don't tell me I said they were good at PnR when I directly said that they are bad at it lol. It's not hard to understand that when I say they are bad, I mean they are bad.

I agree, they are not great in PnR (as I've said over and over and over again now). But what is the alternative? Not like what we're doing is producing great offense.
 
KqWIN said:
You can say it means whatever you want to yourself. I am not the police. But don't tell me I said they were good at PnR when I directly said that they are bad at it lol. It's not hard to understand that when I say they are bad, I mean they are bad.
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relax man... it was the phrasing of "if they aren't PnR players what are they?" They do other things less bad... which is why Hardy has them doing those.
KqWIN said:
I agree, they are not great in PnR (as I've said over and over and over again now). But what is the alternative? Not like what we're doing is producing great offense.
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Other stuff. Ramrodding a John Collins PnR with bad PnR guards isn't some panacea that will save his value. The purpose of the season isn't to save John's value. Honestly its a fool's errand.
 
KqWIN said:
Well, what are they then? They are not very good, but they are all guys who want to dominate the ball but also cannot create a shot on their own. For all of them, their preferred way to play is in PnR. THT is easily the worst shooter, but also by far the most reliant on PnR imo.
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There's more to basketball than just PNR and ISO.
 
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