Hayward's Woes
- Thread starter Getting Traded
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*Googs.
LoPo
Well-Known Member
jimmy eat jazz
Well-Known Member
Agreed. With a core of Hayward, Mitchell, and Gobert, the Jazz would be a legit #2 Seed contender in West and then with some lucky breaks ....
I don't get the thinking that Mitchell is an alpha, Hayward a beta, but having Hayward here would have stunted Mitchell. If he's the alpha you think he his, he would have emerged regardless. But, with those three on the team, we'd be really damned good.
JimLes
Well-Known Member
Usage matters, though. Mitchell is at 31% this year. That's a lot. Russell Westbrook is at 31% this year. Hayward was never higher than 28% when he was in Utah. There's only one ball, so it's a zero-sum game. If Hayward resigns with the Jazz, after the team practically begged him to stay, I can't see them suddenly turning around and cutting his usage in favour of a rookie.
Now, this usage issue is the root cause of Hayward's current troubles. This would've happened whether he got injured or not, though the injury has naturally exacerbated it. Hayward was easily number 1 in usage% on the Jazz his last season. He's 5th on the Celtics right now, and rightfully so. Irving and Tatum are better players than him, injury or not. Brown and Morris are better right now, because of the injury. One way or another, he would've been the third option on defense on this Celtics team, even if Crowder never ended his career, as we will eventually realize he did.
Hayward had a very unique situation on the Jazz where he neither had to be the leader nor was he objectively close to being the best player on the team(all advanced numbers favoured Rudy) yet the offense was built around his strengths. I can't think of other situations in the past 5-6 years where that happened in the NBA. This isn't to play down Hayward's contribution in 16-17, but the reality is that Rudy completely changes the game when he's in, but needs few touches to do it. That's a luxury no other player comparable to Hayward had.
It's really hard to understate just how good Rudy is and how gargantuan his impact is. Did y'all know he's leading the NBA in Win Shares? He's a few decimal points ahead of Harden. James Harden! Followed by Giannis, AD, PG, Jokić, Durant, and Lillard. Rudy's usage% this year is at 17.4, the highest of his career. Harden is at 41. Forty one percent, for crying out loud. Even Durant is at 31, sharing the court as he does with 4 other All-Stars.
I mean, just look at this list. Look at this mother****ing list. This is what Hayward left to team up with his college sweetheart.
Stars Fan
Well-Known Member
Gordon Hayward is not worthy to sniff Tom Gugliotta"s jock strap.
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candrew
Well-Known Member
They do have similar career arcs - they were both drafted a little higher than projected. They both got off to shaky starts but progressively got better (Googs was traded a couple of times tho), they both made one all-star game and they both signed huge contracts immediately followed by injury and their production falling off a cliff.
Of course Gordo's complete story is still unwritten - clock is ticking.
fishonjazz
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Helluva post.Usage matters, though. Mitchell is at 31% this year. That's a lot. Russell Westbrook is at 31% this year. Hayward was never higher than 28% when he was in Utah. There's only one ball, so it's a zero-sum game. If Hayward resigns with the Jazz, after the team practically begged him to stay, I can't see them suddenly turning around and cutting his usage in favour of a rookie.
Now, this usage issue is the root cause of Hayward's current troubles. This would've happened whether he got injured or not, though the injury has naturally exacerbated it. Hayward was easily number 1 in usage% on the Jazz his last season. He's 5th on the Celtics right now, and rightfully so. Irving and Tatum are better players than him, injury or not. Brown and Morris are better right now, because of the injury. One way or another, he would've been the third option on defense on this Celtics team, even if Crowder never ended his career, as we will eventually realize he did.
Hayward had a very unique situation on the Jazz where he neither had to be the leader nor was he objectively close to being the best player on the team(all advanced numbers favoured Rudy) yet the offense was built around his strengths. I can't think of other situations in the past 5-6 years where that happened in the NBA. This isn't to play down Hayward's contribution in 16-17, but the reality is that Rudy completely changes the game when he's in, but needs few touches to do it. That's a luxury no other player comparable to Hayward had.
It's really hard to understate just how good Rudy is and how gargantuan his impact is. Did y'all know he's leading the NBA in Win Shares? He's a few decimal points ahead of Harden. James Harden! Followed by Giannis, AD, PG, Jokić, Durant, and Lillard. Rudy's usage% this year is at 17.4, the highest of his career. Harden is at 41. Forty one percent, for crying out loud. Even Durant is at 31, sharing the court as he does with 4 other All-Stars.
I mean, just look at this list. Look at this mother****ing list. This is what Hayward left to team up with his college sweetheart.
I like any post that shows Rudy's greatness. I'm always trying to make it known. People don't realize. I mean he leads the league in win shares and double doubles and is the defensive player of the year, he is a net 14 points positive when on the court vs off court.
Yet, he might not even make the all Star team. It's a travesty.
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Bawse Dawg
Well-Known Member
Damn, I knew Rudy was awesome, but that's a great post, what a list! And to do that with just a 17.4 usage rate is actually staggering, no chance any other name on that list had one that low.
ESPN or The Ringer really needs to do a massive Rudy article.
jimmy eat jazz
Well-Known Member
I get that usage rates matter, BUT I think Hayward and Mitchell would work well together. I don't agree either that Hayward would not have sacrificed any usage rate for Mitchell; he never tended toward ball hog/hero ball to begin with. Also, Mitchell uses at such a high rate because somebody on the team needs to use those possessions. Hayward would naturally have soaked some possessions; eventually they would have found some balance. Other teams make it work with multiple players who want possessions, I see no reason Mitchell and Hayward could not have made it work. Plus, the reality is that for team to content, it needs more than one high-possession and one low-possession, but highly efficient, star. Somewhere down the line, in order to contend, the Jazz will need somebody to take more possessions, unless Mitchell somehow reaches Harden levels of usage/efficiency.Usage matters, though. Mitchell is at 31% this year. That's a lot. Russell Westbrook is at 31% this year. Hayward was never higher than 28% when he was in Utah. There's only one ball, so it's a zero-sum game. If Hayward resigns with the Jazz, after the team practically begged him to stay, I can't see them suddenly turning around and cutting his usage in favour of a rookie.
Now, this usage issue is the root cause of Hayward's current troubles. This would've happened whether he got injured or not, though the injury has naturally exacerbated it. Hayward was easily number 1 in usage% on the Jazz his last season. He's 5th on the Celtics right now, and rightfully so. Irving and Tatum are better players than him, injury or not. Brown and Morris are better right now, because of the injury. One way or another, he would've been the third option on defense on this Celtics team, even if Crowder never ended his career, as we will eventually realize he did.
Hayward had a very unique situation on the Jazz where he neither had to be the leader nor was he objectively close to being the best player on the team(all advanced numbers favoured Rudy) yet the offense was built around his strengths. I can't think of other situations in the past 5-6 years where that happened in the NBA. This isn't to play down Hayward's contribution in 16-17, but the reality is that Rudy completely changes the game when he's in, but needs few touches to do it. That's a luxury no other player comparable to Hayward had.
It's really hard to understate just how good Rudy is and how gargantuan his impact is. Did y'all know he's leading the NBA in Win Shares? He's a few decimal points ahead of Harden. James Harden! Followed by Giannis, AD, PG, Jokić, Durant, and Lillard. Rudy's usage% this year is at 17.4, the highest of his career. Harden is at 41. Forty one percent, for crying out loud. Even Durant is at 31, sharing the court as he does with 4 other All-Stars.
I mean, just look at this list. Look at this mother****ing list. This is what Hayward left to team up with his college sweetheart.
Thee Jazz Fan
Well-Known Member
Wish I could disagree, but there are a lot af but hurt bitches in here. To my surprise I was relieved he left, and immediately thought let’s find our star. Little did I know we had already stumbled on one weeks earlier.