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Is Quin a genius or bat **** crazy?

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franklin

Well-Known Member
Consider this the Quin Playbook thread prequel.

I can't figure out wtf this guy is doing and it's driving me bonkers. He has a ton of standard plays in line, especially a bunch of San Antonio's sets (old playbook league standards really, but still). Then he goes on and modifies the hell out of everything with so damn many options off the initial play that it's hard to keep things straight. Popp runs most his stuff through a ton of options with variations based on what the defense gives. As far as I can tell, Quin runs the options right off the first initial action with most reverting back to high pick and roll. Surprise surprise, as advertised. He rarely runs the strong motion through the double pin down, horns is a complete mystery, and floppy loop seems to have gone the way of the dodo. Good for that, unless you have Parker running it...

If I can figure out how to convert stats.nba into youtube maybe I'll add a bunch of videos later on. For now I'm confused and don't know where to start. How do the players keep this stuff straight?


One thing I can tell for sure is Kanter severely handicapped the Jazz in comparison to the stretch fives Popp has added. Kanter was wide open and clapping for the ball at the three line all the damn time like he does anywhere on the floor on a ton of plays. If the Jazz can add a 4 or 5 that can shoot the three or make plays like Diaw or Red Rocket then this system should really pick up some offensive steam.
 
yes it's completely kanter's fault again.

we are such well-oiled offensive machine now that kanter is no longer here, and okc must be having some horrific offense having kanter screwing things up for them.
 
couscous said:
yes it's completely kanter's fault again.

we are such well-oiled offensive machine now that kanter is no longer here, and okc must be having some horrific offense having kanter screwing things up for them.
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Did you even read the post?
 
Honestly, I don't know what he is or care for that matter. I like what I see and it's changed me in the way I watch the game. Currently, when I watch a Jazz game, whether the team is on the road or at home, no matter what the score, I feel like we are going to win the game. The last time I felt this way watching games was during the 1997 and 1998 seasons. I don't know what it is but I watch the games thinking they'll pull the win out. Needless to say, this season has been wholly enjoyable. Go figure.
 
couscous said:
yes it's completely kanter's fault again.

we are such well-oiled offensive machine now that kanter is no longer here, and okc must be having some horrific offense having kanter screwing things up for them.
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I mean seriously that is all you got out of the post? Are you a troll or actually a real boy?

mhindy said:
Did you even read the post?
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This.
 
1) Everyone uses what they know. Everywhere Jackson went he used the triangle. He never went to a hard pnr set to match the players he had, he taught them the triangle. Do you see Sloan going elsewhere and not using strong pnr sets? Even in the transition years without an all-nba level PG he used pnr sets in addition to the motion offense. Think of the other established coaches. You know exactly what to expect from Karl, or Brown, or Adelman, or D'Antoni, etc. Seldom do they make huge changes in coaching with a new team or new players.

2)Quin is a new coach, a babe in swaddling clothes as it were, at this level at least. He really hasn't coached enough to know what he wants his go-to system to be. He is still learning exactly what he wants to do with the knowledge he has. He is trying to see what the players he has are capable of and how he can fit that to his knowledge, or how he can teach them what he wants them to do. I am not in the least surprised there is some confusion going on in this regard. If it is still a hot mess of mixed up plays without at least an emerging identity by the end of next season then I think we will have a problem. Right now it isn't that strange, imo.
 
franklin said:
One thing I can tell for sure is Kanter severely handicapped the Jazz in comparison to the stretch fives Popp has added. Kanter was wide open and clapping for the ball at the three line all the damn time like he does anywhere on the floor on a ton of plays. If the Jazz can add a 4 or 5 that can shoot the three or make plays like Diaw or Red Rocket then this system should really pick up some offensive steam.
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7_1155657.jpg
 
I think he is a bat **** crazy genius and just a shooter or two short. All he has right now is Hayward and a finally returning Hood, when he is not tossing his lunch, for shooters. Grab another starting shooter and replace Burke with someone that can at least hit 42% of his shots and things improve dramatically.
 
LogGrad98 said:
2)Quin is a new coach, a babe in swaddling clothes as it were, at this level at least. He really hasn't coached enough to know what he wants his go-to system to be. He is still learning exactly what he wants to do with the knowledge he has. He is trying to see what the players he has are capable of and how he can fit that to his knowledge, or how he can teach them what he wants them to do. I am not in the least surprised there is some confusion going on in this regard. If it is still a hot mess of mixed up plays without at least an emerging identity by the end of next season then I think we will have a problem. Right now it isn't that strange, imo.
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I agree for the most part. My purpose is to figure out what he's doing and document it rather than critique any part of it.

I don't think it's a hot mess. It's more that he runs various plays out of the same beginning sets as opposed to running through a progression with options like Sloan Jackson and Pop. Instead he seems to run multiple separates progressions off the same initial sets. No doubt a lot of this has to do with personnel. A lot of things changed when Burks' slashing abilities went away, and a lot is changing again with Hood coming on strong.


The one thing I don't like is there aren't a lot of double screens or easy backdoor buckets.
 
franklin said:
The one thing I don't like is there aren't a lot of double screens or easy backdoor buckets.
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I agree. I don't understand all the offensive sets like you, but I do see the lack of easy buckets in the half court and in transition. I wonder if it has a lot to do with the passing ability of the current players. They make lots of easy, safe passes on the perimeter, but seem reluctant to make quick aggressive passes. Or perhaps they are being coached to only make safe passes.

It will be fun to see how Quin changes things after the jazz add Alec Burks and one or two more significant players this offseason.
 
franklin said:
I agree for the most part. My purpose is to figure out what he's doing and document it rather than critique any part of it.

I don't think it's a hot mess. It's more that he runs various plays out of the same beginning sets as opposed to running through a progression with options like Sloan Jackson and Pop. Instead he seems to run multiple separates progressions off the same initial sets. No doubt a lot of this has to do with personnel. A lot of things changed when Burks' slashing abilities went away, and a lot is changing again with Hood coming on strong.


The one thing I don't like is there aren't a lot of double screens or easy backdoor buckets.
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Good post.
I have wondered why we don't see more double screens and never see any back door cut for baskets.

Make the back door cuts are happening but the players are not getting open off them (poor screens maybe) or our ball handlers just are not making the pass.

I don't really think they are even being attempted/ran though

Edit: oops, mellow beat me to it
 
franklin said:
I agree for the most part. My purpose is to figure out what he's doing and document it rather than critique any part of it.

I don't think it's a hot mess. It's more that he runs various plays out of the same beginning sets as opposed to running through a progression with options like Sloan Jackson and Pop. Instead he seems to run multiple separates progressions off the same initial sets. No doubt a lot of this has to do with personnel. A lot of things changed when Burks' slashing abilities went away, and a lot is changing again with Hood coming on strong.


The one thing I don't like is there aren't a lot of double screens or easy backdoor buckets.
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I am interested to hear your take on it as he progresses. I do not get to see enough games to make any kind of real analysis of Quin's in-game sets and such.
 
mellow said:
I agree. I don't understand all the offensive sets like you, but I do see the lack of easy buckets in the half court and in transition. I wonder if it has a lot to do with the passing ability of the current players. They make lots of easy, safe passes on the perimeter, but seem reluctant to make quick aggressive passes. Or perhaps they are being coached to only make safe passes.

It will be fun to see how Quin changes things after the jazz add Alec Burks and one or two more significant players this offseason.
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I think he's looking more for easy buckets coming from the outside in off pnr instead of screens and cuts down low. They don't do a lot of that in the heart of the paint. Instead he reverses the ball back the way it just came from on the perimeter to set up pnr, re-pnr, and pass into another pnr. I think all this is supposed to set up scramble situations, but that's hard without Alec or shooters and with Trey and Exum who can't catch and drive. Alec got a lot of catch and drive situations out of this offense.

LogGrad98 said:
I am interested to hear your take on it as he progresses. I do not get to see enough games to make any kind of real analysis of Quin's in-game sets and such.
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I use stats.nba to comb through this stuff when I get bored at work. Real time is too fast and confusing for me to figure much out. That and I'd rather enjoy the game while it's on.
 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?t=113&v=GjvaKOR53Lc



The play starting at 2 point O is beautiful. Quin puts them into standard Popovich Strong Motion -- ball handler passes to the trailing big at the top of the 3 point line who swings to the weak side wing. At this point, the ball handler and the big are supposed to set a double pin down screen for the strong side wing in the corner. Instead, Quin pulls it into HORNS first, and then runs a double pin down fake. Andre Miller, a heady player, tries to hedge the double pin down and then says **** me as Exum goes backdoor. The scramble takes McLemore with Miller to compensate, which frees up Hood for the sploosh.


You want wrinkles out of madness, Quin got wrinkles.
 
franklin said:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?t=113&v=GjvaKOR53Lc



The play starting at 2 point O is beautiful. Quin puts them into standard Popovich Strong Motion -- ball handler passes to the trailing big at the top of the 3 point line who swings to the weak side wing. At this point, the ball handler and the big are supposed to set a double pin down screen for the strong side wing in the corner. Instead, Quin pulls it into HORNS first, and then runs a double pin down fake. Andre Miller, a heady player, tries to hedge the double pin down and then says **** me as Exum goes backdoor. The scramble takes McLemore with Miller to compensate, which frees up Hood for the sploosh.


You want wrinkles out of madness, Quin got wrinkles.
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I tweeted this post to Coach Nickkk. ****er ignored me and then Vine'd a Warriors Motion into HORNS play a minute later. National media dicks always rippin me off.
 
franklin said:
I tweeted this post to Coach Nickkk. ****er ignored me and then Vine'd a Warriors Motion into HORNS play a minute later. National media dicks always rippin me off.
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Hahaha... classic Coach Nickkk.


Remember, it's not a channel, it's a CONVERSATION.


You IN?
 
Horns and DHO (which is really just pick and roll except the picker starts with the ball) leads to ball handler having an advantage over his defender, which leads to layups/dunks off that action and then the roll man. Not really designed for perimeter to interior passing like the flex and the triangle generally do.

That Andre Miller overplay is the only time I've seen horns run where there's an opening under the basket.

I also do not recall a motion set to free up a shooter. I'm trying to remember a Jazz three point shot that wasn't off the dribble or a set catch and shoot.
 
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