Jazz and Knicks discussing Donovan Mitchell trade per Shams Charania and Tony Jones

[Handlogten's Heros]

Well, then it would be a mistake to not be terrible in '25 because the pick would just slide over to that year.

And then it would be a mistake to not be terrible in '26 because of the protected pick.

Is one draft pick worth being bad for 3 years?

No but it’s a factor. If you are holding onto Don and competing it will be difficult to avoid giving that pick up in 24. Giving up a pick early in a rebuild is different than giving one up as you are coming out of the rebuild as your new star talent will have pulled you up out the mud. If we aren’t trading Donovan we will have some extra picks but not the treasure trove we would have otherwise so each pick has a little more value.

It would be tough to plan around keeping that pick. If we decide to really start the tank next year I could see us sucking long enough to keep it… it would mean we competed this year though and essentially traded our own high lotto pick this year for a mid lotto pick this year. To @NUMBERICA point… if we decided to be competitive next year too with Don… you give up a pick and now have one year of Donovan under contract. Would be pretty poor planning.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

Look I’ve read every word on the internet and dark web. I have visited Best Buy… met with @bigmike… and done a podcast with Monty… last night I was visited by the rally churro and it spoke to me… here is what I know…

- we will trade for Westbrook
- we trade Don and RJ ends up coming back
- Stanley Johnson goes to the Knicks
- we end up with two lotto picks next year
- birds are not real

 

[stitches]

I don't doubt that Tony is getting this exact narrative from the Jazz and I cannot fault him for reporting it since it's most probably coming straight from the team, but come on... we are forum posters, we are not idiots... except for one

But yah... allow me to be extremely skeptical about that line of reasoning and reports coming from the Jazz. Look at what they do, not at what they say. EVERY move this off-season has been "starting a rebuild" move and not "lets retool around Mitchell" move. We can listen to those reports and still realize what exactly is happening here.

 

[Elizah Huge]

I don't doubt that Tony is getting this exact narrative from the Jazz and I cannot fault him for reporting it since it's most probably coming straight from the team, but come on... we are forum posters, we are not idiots... except for one

But yah... allow me to be extremely skeptical about that line of reasoning and reports coming from the Jazz. Look at what they do, not at what they say. EVERY move this off-season has been "starting a rebuild" move and not "lets retool around Mitchell" move. We can listen to those reports and still realize what exactly is happening here.

Exactly lol, what about trading Beverley when the main thing we’ve needed is perimeter defenders the last few years screams re-tooling? He’s about as good of a fit around Donovan as you could realistically get right now.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

I don't doubt that Tony is getting this exact narrative from the Jazz and I cannot fault him for reporting it since it's most probably coming straight from the team, but come on... we are forum posters, we are not idiots... except for one

But yah... allow me to be extremely skeptical about that line of reasoning and reports coming from the Jazz. Look at what they do, not at what they say. EVERY move this off-season has been "starting a rebuild" move and not "lets retool around Mitchell" move. We can listen to those reports and still realize what exactly is happening here.

Prior to the Rudy trade I think it was true… when we got the huge load of future assets I think it very much pushed us to door #2

 

[stitches]

Prior to the Rudy trade I think it was true… when we got the huge load of future assets I think it very much pushed us to door #2

IMO this is such a HUGE decision about the direction of the team that you cannot allow one offer, even it if was this good to dictate what you do. This decision needed to include the following steps and considerations:\
1. Ask yourself - is this core good enough to compete at the highest level. If the answer is yes - make moves around the margin to complement our best players. If the answer is yes, you do NOT trade Gobert, even for that package... ESPECIALLY for that package where the value is mostly in future assets. Obviously the answer here was no.
2. Ask yourself - can we retool around either of our core pieces quick enough before their contract is out and/or they ask out? IMO this is where this narrative fails completely. "we traded Rudy not because we didn't believe we can compete with this core, but because the offer was so good"(BTW I agree the offer was good but that offer guarantees ZERO impact players for this team for the duration of Mitchell's contract and/or before he asks out). IMO if you believe in Rudy as a cornerstone and a key piece in this iteration of Jazz basketball... you simply don't trade him. Not unless you think your contending window is over(IMO this is what happened). OK, now we've determined the FO thought at least Rudy was not part of the next contending Jazz team.
3. Are we retooling around Mitchell? With the slight exception of some buzz about Collin Sexton interest, the reports are that the Jazz have not made ANY attempts to strengthen the roster in the short term. We have no starting level center and we haven't even tried to get one. We have made 3 moves this off-season(Royce, Rudy, Beverley). ALL of them shipping out starting/all star level talent that could help right now! ALL of them returning future value and/or young players/reclamation projects.

This just doesn't make ANY sense. We are rebuilding. This has been the conscious plan/decision from the very start of the off-season IMO. Now that doesn't automatically mean we should trade Mitchell right away. If the Jazz are not getting the deal they think he's worth, I don't mind them waiting for a team to pony up what we actually want. But make no mistake - we are rebuilding and IMO Mitchell is not long for the Jazz.

 

[framer]

It is entirely possible they intend to build around Don, starting AFTER this season. If we had Vic or Scoot with Don plus a ton of cap space we would be in a good position. Better than without Don. At that point our leverage with Mitchell suitors would be the highest.

 

[Jazz Fusion]

The Jazz traded Rudy because they got a generational return for him. Too good to pass up.

That deal kept K.D. in Brooklyn.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

IMO this is such a HUGE decision about the direction of the team that you cannot allow one offer, even it if was this good to dictate what you do. This decision needed to include the following steps and considerations:\
1. Ask yourself - is this core good enough to compete at the highest level. If the answer is yes - make moves around the margin to complement our best players. If the answer is yes, you do NOT trade Gobert, even for that package... ESPECIALLY for that package where the value is mostly in future assets. Obviously the answer here was no.
2. Ask yourself - can we retool around either of our core pieces quick enough before their contract is out and/or they ask out? IMO this is where this narrative fails completely. "we traded Rudy not because we didn't believe we can compete with this core, but because the offer was so good"(BTW I agree the offer was good but that offer guarantees ZERO impact players for this team for the duration of Mitchell's contract and/or before he asks out). IMO if you believe in Rudy as a cornerstone and a key piece in this iteration of Jazz basketball... you simply don't trade him. Not unless you think your contending window is over(IMO this is what happened). OK, now we've determined the FO thought at least Rudy was not part of the next contending Jazz team.
3. Are we retooling around Mitchell? With the slight exception of some buzz about Collin Sexton interest, the reports are that the Jazz have not made ANY attempts to strengthen the roster in the short term. We have no starting level center and we haven't even tried to get one. We have made 3 moves this off-season(Royce, Rudy, Beverley). ALL of them shipping out starting/all star level talent that could help right now! ALL of them returning future value and/or young players/reclamation projects.

This just doesn't make ANY sense. We are rebuilding. This has been the conscious plan/decision from the very start of the off-season IMO. Now that doesn't automatically mean we should trade Mitchell right away. If the Jazz are not getting the deal they think he's worth, I don't mind them waiting for a team to pony up what we actually want. But make no mistake - we are rebuilding and IMO Mitchell is not long for the Jazz.

Look I was team tank real early... been arguing with folks on it prior to the Rudy deal. It was always the easier path. I think it was rational to think if we got some young players on the brink of breaking out that you put it around Donovan and keep some guys and see what happens. Most the early rumors on a Rudy trade were around actual players as the main course and picks on the side. When none of those deals materialized then a big offer comes but doesn't bring back any current building blocks you pivot.

I think the Royce move was a slight tell... but if we had kept Rudy I could still just see that being the move we got a fluid asset and allowed us to duck the tax.

Doesn't mean a rebuild wasn't in the cards for the next 12-24 months... means you delay the decision and try a few things before completely giving in. It was more credible before... but even I was like "why are we delaying the inevitable?". So I can also buy the theory that the tank may have been the preferred path. I can buy that some things are flexible and will be dictated by the market too.

At this point it feel like we are selling wolf tickets. I feel we trade Donovan unless the Knicks offer is just ****... we might have to hold him a little longer than we like but it is less than ideal for a ton of reasons and he'd still very much out on the market.

I am team tank... have been an early adopter... you can go back to a thread where I said the Knicks were at the cross section of hope and desperation. I am somewhat shocked we went that way as most teams do the tear down a year too late rather than a year before they have to... I think the premium we got may have been the deciding factor.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

It is entirely possible they intend to build around Don, starting AFTER this season. If we had Vic or Scoot with Don plus a ton of cap space we would be in a good position. Better than without Don. At that point our leverage with Mitchell suitors would be the highest.

I'm not going to say what is possible and isn't... I have some wild *** theories myself. I think that would be a really flawed plan and getting 85% of what you are asking for is a better plan.

As a leverage play... every year we lose a year on Don's deal we lose leverage. The trade demands and preferred destinations become much more real. If it gets to the point where he has one year left on his deal because teams called your bluff then the returns will be so much less.

Right now he is playing nice... he has 3 years left on his deal. The only thing we lack is a couple more suitors... there is a chance some emerge but there is also a chance the Knicks end up pursuing someone else. I think there is middle ground on the Knicks deal... I think that is very much preferable to just digging in and getting everything we are asking for or else no deal.

 

[gomretat]

The Jazz traded Rudy because they got a generational return for him. Too good to pass up.

Hope you are right. Seems to me that the odds of getting really good picks and getting all stars who are as good as Rudy and Donavon with theses picks is not nearly as high as people want to believe. Ainge did it once but I still dont see the odds being in our favor. It is easy to imagine that 3 or 4 years from now we dont have anyone as good as the two guys we were anxious to get rid of.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

Hope you are right. Seems to me that the odds of getting really good picks and getting all stars who are as good as Rudy and Donavon with theses picks is not nearly as high as people want to believe. Ainge did it once but I still dont see the odds being in our favor. It is easy to imagine that 3 or 4 years from now we dont have anyone as good as the two guys we were anxious to get rid of.

May not get them with those specific picks but with our picks and the assets we have accumulated we should be able to build something great again.