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John Collins = Marvin Williams

HermanG said:
I think that proves how much of our success comes from playing as a unit.

Collins individual play is not that level bad, and yet he is a net negative well beyond his counting stats in every single 2-5 man lineup.... so its not really a fit thing either (unless you want to say that he is a bad fit with EVERYONE). He just doesnt have a grasp on what Hardy wants him to do in different situations, and causes system malfunctions regardless of who he plays with.

I think Atlanta may have broken him and seeing how the Hawks struggle to adapt to Quin's systems I'm thinking there might be others who are broken as well. Nate McMillan ran such elemantary offenses and defenses that when you all of a sudden have to master something more complex you have years of playing only with your instincts and habits that you first need to overcome.
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The Hawks are 6th in offense..

They have mediocre wings and a center who has fallen off defensively, but still looks good stats wise because he plays with a great playmaker
 
HermanG said:
I think that proves how much of our success comes from playing as a unit.

Collins individual play is not that level bad, and yet he is a net negative well beyond his counting stats in every single 2-5 man lineup.... so its not really a fit thing either (unless you want to say that he is a bad fit with EVERYONE). He just doesnt have a grasp on what Hardy wants him to do in different situations, and causes system malfunctions regardless of who he plays with.

I think Atlanta may have broken him and seeing how the Hawks struggle to adapt to Quin's systems I'm thinking there might be others who are broken as well. Nate McMillan ran such elemantary offenses and defenses that when you all of a sudden have to master something more complex you have years of playing only with your instincts and habits that you first need to overcome.
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As the kids would say “it ain’t that deep”. It isn’t that he’s performed horribly… it isn’t that he’s broken… it’s simply he’s just not that good. He’s fine but he’s got his limitations. They were there in Atlanta in multiple roles and iterations. The players you need to fit around John to maximize what he does are rare. He’s a third big who’s paid like a surefire everyday starter.

The plus minus stuff is exaggerated for sure. I swear people forgot about the extreme difference an elite rim protector makes in things like plus minus. Based on plus minus Rudy would look like the mvp in advanced stats. Collins is a horrible rim protector as a center. Lauri really isn’t a rim protecting center… going from shutting off the paint to a full green light makes a huge difference in defense. That is why it will always look bad. If you had a floor spacing rim protector then Collins could play starter minutes and put up his near 20/10 as a roller and spot up shooter. Otherwise he’s just a third big that makes twice as much as he should.
 
I'm pretty happy with what I am seeing from Collins right now. He is finding his role with this team and is showing consistency.
 
Handlogten's Heros said:
As the kids would say “it ain’t that deep”. It isn’t that he’s performed horribly… it isn’t that he’s broken… it’s simply he’s just not that good. He’s fine but he’s got his limitations. They were there in Atlanta in multiple roles and iterations. The players you need to fit around John to maximize what he does are rare. He’s a third big who’s paid like a surefire everyday starter.

The plus minus stuff is exaggerated for sure. I swear people forgot about the extreme difference an elite rim protector makes in things like plus minus. Based on plus minus Rudy would look like the mvp in advanced stats. Collins is a horrible rim protector as a center. Lauri really isn’t a rim protecting center… going from shutting off the paint to a full green light makes a huge difference in defense. That is why it will always look bad. If you had a floor spacing rim protector then Collins could play starter minutes and put up his near 20/10 as a roller and spot up shooter. Otherwise he’s just a third big that makes twice as much as he should.
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But that is exactly what the water carrying guys reported, and why they put him on the trade block. That he has struggled adapting to Hardy's systems.

I know his on/off being in the bottom 1% defensively has a lot to do with Kessler, but Collins has 220 minutes with Kessler for the season and he has managed to sabotage even Kesslers defensive rating to 10 points higher level than Kessler has with anyone on the entire roster (including spot minute guys). Its not individual 1om1 failures, its that he misses assigments and rotations and the whole defense gets disorganized.

In last 15 games (so during our hot stretch), Kessler has an awesome DRtg with 2 poor individual defenders (George 97.9, Olynyk 96.0), but he still has 116.8 rating with Collins. Only one who comes within 10 points of that is Sexton at 108.0.

This is Kessler 2-man lineup ranked by DRtg.

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The Collins/Kessler lineups were exclusively against starting units too, so that's part of why the stats look worse.

All the great advanced stats we see out of alternative lineups are lineups that aren't going against opposing teams beat units.
 
While I’d agree that JC is not as bad as his +/- stuff suggest (it’s almost impossible to be that bad)….I don’t really buy into this thing that it’s because he’s the counterpart to Kessler. Kessler is good, Collins has been very bad….but nothing more beyond that.

He has been much better inside of the paint with the rotations. I still think Hardy is making a mistake by using him as an outside-in type of player….but it’s been better this way. Ideally, I would to see him used more like a big when Kessler is not on the court.
 
HermanG said:
But that is exactly what the water carrying guys reported, and why they put him on the trade block. That he has struggled adapting to Hardy's systems.

I know his on/off being in the bottom 1% defensively has a lot to do with Kessler, but Collins has 220 minutes with Kessler for the season and he has managed to sabotage even Kesslers defensive rating to 10 points higher level than Kessler has with anyone on the entire roster (including spot minute guys). Its not individual 1om1 failures, its that he misses assigments and rotations and the whole defense gets disorganized.

In last 15 games (so during our hot stretch), Kessler has an awesome DRtg with 2 poor individual defenders (George 97.9, Olynyk 96.0), but he still has 116.8 rating with Collins. Only one who comes within 10 points of that is Sexton at 108.0.

This is Kessler 2-man lineup ranked by DRtg.

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I'm guessing a bunch of those minutes came in the early part of the season when Walker and everyone was struggling. Not to excuse Collins but a lot of that was about Kessler not being right. The last 15 games is more representative of the issue imo. Its just not a minus 17 type of issue imo its just that JC is not our ideal frontcourt player. Hes our fourth best front court player. Running Kessler against bench players is also going to throw the numbers off as well.

Its the people throwing their arms up in disbelief that I think is funny. Yes he is a limited player and many of us tried to tell yall. He has played as well as can be expected in the role we had for him. He was a known commodity and if we were taking on his contract we should have got a first. He was never a defensive stopper... best he got to was okayish. He had some moments in the playoffs holding his own against Embiid and I think he got overrated. He was atrocious coming out of college on defense and got to a good spot for him.

He's struggled "adapting to the system" because he sucks at some of the things we are asking out of him... but its not a system issue and all of the fit issues were known from day 1... unless you put blinders on. We should have held out for the Kings pick or walked away. Now that he's here Hardy is dealing with it the best he can and its fine for now.
 
Conley was horrible his first year with the Jazz. Not an apple to apples situation, but John Collins has been lacking in 1) his defense 2) his finishing inside the paint. I can't find a good reason as to why that would be, so I'm cautiously optimistic he will return to form. At least to 21/22 form. I don't think we will see peak John Collins without a role change + better PG.
 
This is an awful thread. The only thing about these two you can compare is that they were drafted by the Hawks and then went from Atl to Utah.

Collins is more skilled and athletic, Williams is a better shooter and defender, and was a winning player and worth at least a grain of salt. His teams consistently won
 
Thee Idiotic Minivan K said:
This is an awful thread. The only thing about these two you can compare is that they were drafted by the Hawks and then went from Atl to Utah.

Collins is more skilled and athletic, Williams is a better shooter and defender, and was a winning player and worth at least a grain of salt. His teams consistently won
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I stand by it
 
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