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LDS General Conference 2012

TroutBum

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I can't believe there hasn't been a thread on this yet, but not really. I am only making it because I wanted to know your take on Nelson's talk on Sunday morning. Specifically, I'd like Colton and franklin's, since they're in the business of science.

I wonder how some of the Mormon scientists, namely Henry B. Eyring, felt about it: "Anyone who has studied the inner workings of the human body has seen God moving in His majesty and power... Some think such marvelous things happened by chance or resulted from a big bang somewhere. Ask yourself - could an explosion in a printing shop produce a dictionary?"

Personally, I felt sorry for Nelson, and for the clowns that were laughing with him. My wife and I had a quick but heated argument about it. (I lost)
 
I was going to comment, but remembered my name was not Colton or franklin.
 
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I apologize in advance for this response.

I'm not huge on this analogy because it is akin to saying that "science" believes all life found its present form as the immediate result of one spectacular occurrence. I understand what he was getting at, but I think there are better ways of doing it.

I'm also a little disappointed every time a GA says something to widen the gap between religion and science. I would love, at the end of it all, if God got up on front of everybody and said, "Yeah, the Big Bang. Pretty much correct. That's how I did it."
 
I can't believe there hasn't been a thread on this yet, but not really. I am only making it because I wanted to know your take on Nelson's talk on Sunday morning. Specifically, I'd like Colton and franklin's, since they're in the business of science.

I wonder how some of the Mormon scientists, namely Henry B. Eyring, felt about it: "Anyone who has studied the inner workings of the human body has seen God moving in His majesty and power... Some think such marvelous things happened by chance or resulted from a big bang somewhere. Ask yourself - could an explosion in a printing shop produce a dictionary?"

Personally, I felt sorry for Nelson, and for the clowns that were laughing with him. My wife and I had a quick but heated argument about it. (I lost)

Henry B. Eyring is not a scientist. His father, Henry E. Eyring, was a pretty good scientist who wrote books about faith and science, and was at one time in the Sunday School Presidency, and helped in a number of ways to make science, including belief in evolution, compatible with being a Mormon in good standing.

HE Eyring would say positive things about discoveries compatible with a scientific view of evolutionary processes, and openly stated that the Earth was billions of years old, just like Joseph Smith once said, and put it all together as compatible with the fact that in Hebrew, the decimal point, or number of thousands, was not concretely specified, and left it open to translators later on to fit things to their own ignorance. He believed "Large Periods of Time" would have been a better translation than "Thousand Years" or "Day with the Lord".

While more of an education specialist as opposed to scientist, Henry B. Eyring probably read his father's books, but is simply polite enough to let other folks express their opinions without really heavy-handed censorship.

Russel Nelson is a scientist, too, and probably has some scientific basis for his statements, as well as religious ones. I agree with his statement perfectly, even though I accept evolution pretty much as an as-yet-imperfectly-understood phenomena. We have no data that could possibly relate to whether or not it is a natural process that is influenced by divine guidance, like say a disparate bunch of elites representing various independent states who could argue all summer and then finally settle on an agreement like our Constitution, which gave ordinary people vast and expansive rights to direct their limited government.

There are several points of view that can be taken and quite well-defended for some kind of "intelligent design", some of which don't necessarily involve a Judeo-Christian God. For example, there is prominent Russian scientist who worked through the Stalinist era without getting sent to Siberia, a professor Vernadsky, who developed a scientific theory about the "Noosphere", the whole underlying physical set of conditions necessary for life, and who believed nature has a pattern of creating the things necessary for life, a sort of "life-force" inherent in the universe.

Zen Buddhists and Hindus have their own understandings of the ultimate facts of life which essentially agree that we exist as some part of a sentient Nature. The very most fundamental kernel of "intelligent design".

However, American courts have decided they know more about it than anyone, and must prevent it from being discussed in public schools, in favor of Nietzsche's assertions that men who have power to play God should have the right to do so.
 
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I can't believe there hasn't been a thread on this yet, but not really. I am only making it because I wanted to know your take on Nelson's talk on Sunday morning. Specifically, I'd like Colton and franklin's, since they're in the business of science.

I wonder how some of the Mormon scientists, namely Henry B. Eyring, felt about it: "Anyone who has studied the inner workings of the human body has seen God moving in His majesty and power... Some think such marvelous things happened by chance or resulted from a big bang somewhere. Ask yourself - could an explosion in a printing shop produce a dictionary?"

Personally, I felt sorry for Nelson, and for the clowns that were laughing with him. My wife and I had a quick but heated argument about it. (I lost)

I had a problem with the words he chose, not the point he was making. The point he was making is that the intricate details of of the world around us are evidence of the hand of the Creator. I absolutely believe that. The words he chose unfortunately left the impression that LDS should not believe in the big bang.

I have a friend who is an astronomer who summed it up nicely. She wrote in a Facebook post:

"The big bang is an expansion not an explosion, if you are going to make fun of it, at least get the details right...now I have 116 students with a picture of an exploding printing press in their minds that I now have to pull out and replace with an expanding one. :) An explosion has a center, an expansion does not. The expansion of the universe was gloriously organized with the same beauty and detail that he gave to his description of the human body. I don't make fun of his study of God's creation and likewise he shouldn't make fun of my study of God's creation. He would not if he took the time to study out and understand the way he has studied the human body."
 
tl;dnw, sorry.

I suppose they're possible, but the number of spontaneous activities necessary to make a single one of the simpler cycles possible inside an organism astounds me. In a cycle, complex molecules rely on the existence of the others. According to evolution, these randomly formed, complex molecules just happened to form against the laws of thermodynamics, in very close vicinity, aggregated spontaneously inside the same spherule, and decided to invent the Calvin cycle? That sounds like how a god would miraculously form but not us.

I also wonder why the universe expands at that perfect rate out of nearly infinite possibilities (a term One Brow would scold me for using :)).
I also wonder why convergent evolution has not produced other highly intelligent beings as evolution would predict. Where are the mermaids and men?
I also think God had the deluge to destroy Neanderthals that the Adamaic blood line was mixing with. That's not a joke, I really am that wacky.
 
Henry B. Eyring is not a scientist. His father, Henry E. Eyring, was a pretty good scientist...

Henry E. Eyring was more than just a "pretty good" scientist. He was a world class chemist who (as I understand it) won all the scientific awards in his field short of the Nobel Prize.

And for what it's worth, Pres. Henry B. Eyring did get his undergraduate degree in physics, even though after that he went into business.
 
tl;dnw, sorry.

I suppose they're possible, but the number of spontaneous activities necessary to make a single one of the simpler cycles possible inside an organism astounds me. In a cycle, complex molecules rely on the existence of the others. According to evolution, these randomly formed, complex molecules just happened to form against the laws of thermodynamics, in very close vicinity, aggregated spontaneously inside the same spherule, and decided to invent the Calvin cycle? That sounds like how a god would miraculously form but not us.

I also wonder why the universe expands at that perfect rate out of nearly infinite possibilities (a term One Brow would scold me for using :)).
I also wonder why convergent evolution has not produced other highly intelligent beings as evolution would predict. Where are the mermaids and men?
I also think God had the deluge to destroy Neanderthals that the Adamaic blood line was mixing with. That's not a joke, I really am that wacky.



Hmm, interesting response. I am learning much of what you have mentioned in my current Biology and/or Physics courses, and a lot of what you said makes a decent amount of sense.

In the end of the day, I just believe in God for reasons I cannot really explain. Life, to me, seems much too coincidental, and journey-like, for there not to be a "bigger-plan" of some sort. Things always seem to work out for the better. I dunno.
 
JazzSpazz, don't be fatuous. I'd like to hear your take as well.

I'm glad babe was able to turn a fairly short and reasonable response into a long-winded bore-a-thon involving the government and constitution. (as only babe knows how to do) Thanks to Colton and franklin for their opinions.

I know there are more people who watched/read/listened to this talk; did nobody else take it like I did?
 
Basically, he had a reasonable point to make, but he is not an articulate or even charismatic speaker. I much prefer the German who completely exudes charisma and has a way of connecting to the audience.
 
Basically, he had a reasonable point to make, but he is not an articulate or even charismatic speaker. I much prefer the German who completely exudes charisma and has a way of connecting to the audience.

To me, this conference was historic in that I don't remember any instances of Uchtdorf mentioning that he was a pilot.
 
JazzSpazz, don't be fatuous. I'd like to hear your take as well.

I'm glad babe was able to turn a fairly short and reasonable response into a long-winded bore-a-thon involving the government and constitution. (as only babe knows how to do) Thanks to Colton and franklin for their opinions.

I know there are more people who watched/read/listened to this talk; did nobody else take it like I did?


I didn't have any issues with what he said, or how he said it.

To me his point was that there is a God who is behind everything we see, and as amazing as life is in many different ways he doesn't see it as a random chance that it happened. In my opinion the point he was emphasizing is that of all of the infinite possibilities out there if you think of it as randomness, that we just got lucky with all of the possibilities? No, he is saying there is someone behind all of this, orchestrating it, and that everything we see, and don't see, is not just randomness. I think that was the point of blowing up a print shop to get a dictionary, that having it all fall together on its own and having no help turn into the dictionary.

Long story short, God exists and is behind all of the amazing things that are life.
 
The idea of God is illogical to me, but so is the idea of everything just happening by chance. It's tough to make sense of it all, I say whatever makes you happy whether it be god or science or even scientology, is alright with me.
 
I didn't have any issues with what he said, or how he said it.

To me his point was that there is a God who is behind everything we see, and as amazing as life is in many different ways he doesn't see it as a random chance that it happened. In my opinion the point he was emphasizing is that of all of the infinite possibilities out there if you think of it as randomness, that we just got lucky with all of the possibilities? No, he is saying there is someone behind all of this, orchestrating it, and that everything we see, and don't see, is not just randomness. I think that was the point of blowing up a print shop to get a dictionary, that having it all fall together on its own and having no help turn into the dictionary.

Long story short, God exists and is behind all of the amazing things that are life.

Maybe (probably) I'm a bad mormon, but while I understood the point he was trying to make (and agree, basically), I don't like that analogy. It misrepresents the science it is referencing, and that makes the speaker look uninformed.

I did, however, enjoy Elder Kristofferson's talk, where he mentioned that a prophet is only a prophet when acting as such, and that sometimes things said by church leadership are just man thoughts, nothing more.
 
The idea of God is illogical to me, but so is the idea of everything just happening by chance. It's tough to make sense of it all, I say whatever makes you happy whether it be god or science or even scientology, is alright with me.

Here is a kernel of the tolerance and humility that originally was attached to the term "liberal", which I think stood in a polar opposite meaning to "controlling".

For Trout's sake, I won't do an essay right here on how controlling pro-governance progressivism has become under outright fascist direction. And despite the limitations of space in here, I actually do realize that a government that is actually in the service of its people/masters can do a whole lot of great things, which is why some close to me accurately paint me as a socialist. The crux of it all is who is serving who.

And I'm also aware that to some, the idea of "God" connotes with all the evils of a busybody big-bro jackbooted Thug of infinite proportions, far worse than a mere government, deserving absolute contempt. So, for some, I can understand why any rational explanation of things that can give us some breathing space has intense personal meaning roughly equivalent to what religion does for others.

What I'd like to say, in defense of the LDS, is that there is some wiggle room for people even like me to hold their own opinions, or even do scientific research, or even get involved in politics. I know a lot of the more simple believers don't see how to juggle apparent conflicts arising from incomplete understanding, and that is why we have institutions like churches and religions where various values can be shared by those who are more like-minded. I repose great faith in a God who can relate to a lot more of us than we can, and love more people than we can imagine, more or less on equal terms, despite some the hot issues we morons like to use against one another.

And, for the record, I knew Henry E. Eyring very well, and we had some differences of opinion. I worked directly for him for about twelve years. His son Edward M. Eyring "Ted" was once my bishop, and a friend of several in my family. Several of my brothers got doctorate degrees under his direction. When you speak of the Eyring family you are speaking of cosmopolitan and refined gentlemen of the highest magnitude of social grace. I've never heard them make a single assine retort displaying disrespect for anyone.

With about twenty other folks in his researcfh group, I was invited to his home in his last days of life, when he knew it was a matter of a month or two. He took the occasion to address our differences of belief directly, in terms others would not fully understand. He knew I was an idiot who didn't care about my own interests a whit. I was all about the value of ideas, and always willing to make statements bordering on idiocy to make a point.

Looking straight at me he, he said "I'm a scoundrel". For those of you who just can't follow a simple sentence, he was referring to himself. . . . but there was no self-disrespect in his point. He always knew what he needed to do, and why he did it. His point was meant for me, to the effect that I had a failing in not knowing those things. And to make his point clear, while everyone was protesting his claim, he said "I always knew what was in my own interest." Meaning, as I would render it, he was nobody's fool.

I dunno, maybe one day I'll take that instruction/lecture/advice to heart and stop being everybody's fool.

But for sure, I knew him as a particularly intelligent and gifted, and honorable man. So he fudged on his grant money and kept some Chinese and Korean scientists on a very stretched out payroll because he just believed they could make a contribution.

And a secretary, and one lab rat moron, with multiple sclerosis.
 
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The idea of God is illogical to me, but so is the idea of everything just happening by chance. It's tough to make sense of it all, I say whatever makes you happy whether it be god or science or even scientology, is alright with me.

What you said reminded me of the famous Philosopher David Hume

He was critical of religions and the concept of god but when asked if he was an atheist he said "I don't have enough faith to be an atheist."

There are 6 physical constants for the universe (also I hear there are 30 physical properties of earth like tilt distance from sun etc) that seem fantastically fine tuned for life. From what I hear, the chance of these fine tunes being the way they are is 1 part in 10^120. That number is greater then the total amount of atoms in the Entire Universe. The one in particular is the constant for expansion of the universe. Had it been 1 part in a million slower, the big bang would have re collapsed on itself. Had it been 1 part in a million faster, then stars and planets had not have been formed.

Many atheists use the Multiverse and anthropic principle as counters to this.

I think thats the difference between an atheist and a believer, one believes the Kalam Cosmological arguement and fine tuned universe to be stronger arguements, the other believes that Multiverse and anthropic principle to be stronger arguments.
 
Henry B. Eyring is not a scientist. His father, Henry E. Eyring, was a pretty good scientist who wrote books about faith and science, and was at one time in the Sunday School Presidency, and helped in a number of ways to make science, including belief in evolution, compatible with being a Mormon in good standing.

HE Eyring would say positive things about discoveries compatible with a scientific view of evolutionary processes, and openly stated that the Earth was billions of years old, just like Joseph Smith once said, and put it all together as compatible with the fact that in Hebrew, the decimal point, or number of thousands, was not concretely specified, and left it open to translators later on to fit things to their own ignorance. He believed "Large Periods of Time" would have been a better translation than "Thousand Years" or "Day with the Lord".

While more of an education specialist as opposed to scientist, Henry B. Eyring probably read his father's books, but is simply polite enough to let other folks express their opinions without really heavy-handed censorship.

Russel Nelson is a scientist, too, and probably has some scientific basis for his statements, as well as religious ones. I agree with his statement perfectly, even though I accept evolution pretty much as an as-yet-imperfectly-understood phenomena. We have no data that could possibly relate to whether or not it is a natural process that is influenced by divine guidance, like say a disparate bunch of elites representing various independent states who could argue all summer and then finally settle on an agreement like our Constitution, which gave ordinary people vast and expansive rights to direct their limited government.

There are several points of view that can be taken and quite well-defended for some kind of "intelligent design", some of which don't necessarily involve a Judeo-Christian God. For example, there is prominent Russian scientist who worked through the Stalinist era without getting sent to Siberia, a professor Vernadsky, who developed a scientific theory about the "Noosphere", the whole underlying physical set of conditions necessary for life, and who believed nature has a pattern of creating the things necessary for life, a sort of "life-force" inherent in the universe.

Zen Buddhists and Hindus have their own understandings of the ultimate facts of life which essentially agree that we exist as some part of a sentient Nature. The very most fundamental kernel of "intelligent design".

However, American courts have decided they know more about it than anyone, and must prevent it from being discussed in public schools, in favor of Nietzhe's assertions that men who have power to play God should have the right to do so.

Nietzsche.
 
Basically, he had a reasonable point to make, but he is not an articulate or even charismatic speaker. I much prefer the German who completely exudes charisma and has a way of connecting to the audience.

e-fuhrer-adolf-hitler.jpg


Say it ain't so?
 
I just think the idea of a being living in a far distant place, judging, helping, causing, teaching guiding, etc.... is just a little hard for me to grasp. But so is the idea that there is a 1 in 1,000,000,000,000 to the 1,000,000,000 th power that this all happened by chance is also far fetched. I'm a good person, I sincerely try to not be a dick, if there is a god isn't that all that he would want anyways?
 
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