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babe said:
So this is another case where you've shown yourself much better educated somehow than I am. I had never heard of "Hiram Abiff", but there is a lot about him in the google queue.

secrets of the society of Masons.. . . .

interesting about some of the differences in different branches of Masons around the world. Don't suppose there is one that's the true ultimate order of things. . . . . lol
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I wonder. . . . should I do a "lol" at the sacred secrets of the Masons, or not???
 
PKM said:
was referring to the cave, stone box, treasure.. etc.

(let me say, I do or say nothing to try to discredit the Mormon faith.. rather, I enjoy seeing/reading both sides of any hotly debated subject.)

Of my Mormon friends, one mistake I think they make (jmo) is trying to 'prove' outside of any reasonable doubt, using logic, the fact the LDS church is the 'True Church.'
I've often told them that, imo, communicating faith in your beliefs can be far more compelling and less exhausting than the trivial dissecting of doctrine ... across multiple denominations, multiple time periods/renditions, etc..
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what are you? A BLM professional archaeologist, or a pastor???
 
babe said:
So this is another case where you've shown yourself much better educated somehow than I am. I had never heard of "Hiram Abiff", but there is a lot about him in the google queue.

secrets of the society of Masons.. . . .

interesting about some of the differences in different branches of Masons around the world. Don't suppose there is one that's the true ultimate order of things. . . . . lol
Click to expand...

I think in all groups there are similarities and differences. Sticking to the topic.. I have asked at least 6 different devout Mormons (all in St. George) whether they believe I am going to Heaven (as a Christian/non-Mormon). I have never gotten the same answer twice. Why? I think the answer is potentially far more complex than;

- They don't understand their own doctrine
- The teachings are inadequate within the LDS church
- Each ward may have different variations of 'truth'

Whereas all of those could potentially be true, I realize it could also be any number of these;

- Maybe they each have the same answer but different ways of communicating it.. which sounds vastly different
- Maybe each discerned I was ready for varying degrees of information/truth
- Maybe one takes my query as more sincere than another.. and thus makes a better attempt at a responsible answer

Anyway, all that is to say that many times how we perceive things are skewed by how others may perceive things.. and thus begins a string of untruths.. all perhaps with a sincere beginning.
 
babe said:
I wonder. . . . should I do a "lol" at the sacred secrets of the Masons, or not???
Click to expand...

I doubt lightening will strike you.. but if it does, it will now strike us both.

babe said:
what are you? A BLM professional archaeologist, or a pastor???
Click to expand...

I am neither, but of the two, I find the pastor a much more honorable career. Sad that there is so much lack of integrity in each of those fields.. two that should be beyond reproach.
 
PKM said:
was referring to the cave, stone box, treasure.. etc.

(let me say, I do or say nothing to try to discredit the Mormon faith.. rather, I enjoy seeing/reading both sides of any hotly debated subject.)

Of my Mormon friends, one mistake I think they make (jmo) is trying to 'prove' outside of any reasonable doubt, using logic, the fact the LDS church is the 'True Church.'
I've often told them that, imo, communicating faith in your beliefs can be far more compelling and less exhausting than the trivial dissecting of doctrine ... across multiple denominations, multiple time periods/renditions, etc..
Click to expand...

So here's what I did with the whole science vs religion thing.

when I applied to become a Mormon missionary, my bishop---whose daughter was proabably as bad as my mom about thinking I was something special, enough so she used to go home every day from school, where she took every pretext to be around me, and just babble for hours about how much she liked me---- asked me if I had a testimony of the Church. I think "testimony of the Church" was his exact terminology.

I said I didn't know.

He was startled, and then asked me why I wanted to be a missionary.

I said the Church was the best Church I knew about, and I thought some people might like to learn more about it.
 
There are different ways of "knowing" things. It pays to bear in mind which way you are leaning on, at least once in a while.
 
Like you say, faith is not something you can transfer by a list of facts however broadly accepted as "logic".
 
babe said:
So here's what I did with the whole science vs religion thing.

when I applied to become a Mormon missionary, my bishop---whose daughter was proabably as bad as my mom about thinking I was something special, enough so she used to go home every day from school, where she took every pretext to be around me, and just babble for hours about how much she liked me---- asked me if I had a testimony of the Church. I think "testimony of the Church" was his exact terminology.

I said I didn't know.

He was startled, and then asked me why I wanted to be a missionary.

I said the Church was the best Church I knew about, and I thought some people might like to learn more about it.
Click to expand...

(I good laughed)
I believe God shows up in simple truths much more than complex theories.
 
Even scientific "principles", considered established by the scientists of the day, are not well-established by empirical findings. . . . . well, there's circumstances that are outside the known realm, or the studied realm. . . . and we just have "faith" or "presumption" that the principle will hold outside of our experience or observation.
 
By around 1978 I was already figuring that while some line items of Mormonism might not exactly hold firm to a thorough examination, I didn't think God ever intended to set up a religion that was clear-cut "fact" that people could use like a club to force others to comply.
 
I think God gave us a "clean slate" coming into this world, a fairly thorough ignorance of everything, on purpose. . . . yah I know this is speculation, too . . . . to let us be free to think, or learn to think anew.
 
So, anyway, PKM, I sense you and I are somewhat on the same page. I see faith in others besides the LDS, and I see the problem with the LDS manner of exposition of their "faith". I think they do have faith, but they are over-doing the case sometimes. Not all, mostly the insecure "believers" who are not comfortable in their own skin, so to speak.
 
PKM said:
(I good laughed)
I believe God shows up in simple truths much more than complex theories.
Click to expand...

well, however complex the universe and God may be, and whatever the advantages may be for comprehending it all, you are right.
 
One of my better friends is a pretty complete disbeliever in Mormonism. For reasons I find pretty understandable.

I told him God gave us a gift. ... . Life. . . . .

What we choose to return to Him in manner of life or belief, is our gift to Him.
 
babe said:
So, anyway, PKM, I sense you and I are somewhat on the same page. I see faith in others besides the LDS, and I see the problem with the LDS manner of exposition of their "faith". I think they do have faith, but they are over-doing the case sometimes. Not all, mostly the insecure "believers" who are not comfortable in their own skin, so to speak.
Click to expand...

Mostly agree.

The most truly believing believers I have ever known seemed to lack the interest in arguing their beliefs... as much as they did just trying to obey God and do their best to be kind to others.. knowing they will fall short of pleasing God through their works.. but rather those works being complimentary to the core principal we have a loving and gracious God.. and without those aspects of Him, we'd all fall short.

Bye for now... gotta put up 'new' hay.
 
Pretty clear, imo, from the teachings of Jesus, that no gift we can give will satisfy God unless it is sincerely from our heart.
 
babe said:
well, however complex the universe and God may be, and whatever the advantages may be for comprehending it all, you are right.
Click to expand...

My experience has always been that those things that are very complex are so because I just haven't learned yet how simple they really are.
 
PKM said:
Mostly agree.

The most truly believing believers I have ever known seemed to lack the interest in arguing their beliefs... as much as they did just trying to obey God and do their best to be kind to others.. knowing they will fall short of pleasing God through their works.. but rather those works being complimentary to the core principal we have a loving and gracious God.. and without those aspects of Him, we'd all fall short.

Bye for now... gotta put up 'new' hay.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the effort. We put this thread over the 2500 mark this morning. Have a good day.
 
babe said:
One of my better friends is a pretty complete disbeliever in Mormonism. For reasons I find pretty understandable.

I told him God gave us a gift. ... . Life. . . . .

What we choose to return to Him in manner of life or belief, is our gift to Him.
Click to expand...

I have had very nice friendships with devout atheists.. mainly because I express how similar we really are, rather than how vastly different.
Example I've used is we each have a little girl, that had a nightmare and is crying in her bed in the middle of the night. Neither of us would just forsake her and let her cry. Both of us would go to her, both would comfort, both would likely be effective in making her feel better.. the only slight difference is I may have prayed for her.. and gave the glory to God for her feeling and sleeping better.. whereas the atheist doesn't pray and gives the glory to self.. in the end, the result could be identical, which makes our lives very similar....
 
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