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The reason a lot of people converted to Mormonism is because of that doctrinal belief. . . . after having questions in their reading of the scripture. . . and realizing that only Mormonism is actually consistent with the Bible on that point. A fact that is still as true today as it was 180 years ago.
 
The Bible says Enoch walked with God. No intimation of anything but being just that physically close and associated in terms of daily activities.

Enoch knew who God is.
 
The Bible says God showed Noah how to build the ark. No intimation of some vague "impressions" but actual instruction, like any carpenter who's done the job before can show an apprentice.

Noah knew who God is.
 
The Bible says GOD, YHVH, came walking up the road and turned in to visit Abraham. And his family.

Abraham, Sarah, and the servants of the house knew who God is.
 
The Bible says Moses talked to God, and that God inscribed some commandments on a set of stone tablets with His finger. Mentions hands, back parts, face. . . . of God. Moses tried to get some seventy men from the Camp to come up on Mount Sinai to see who God is. . . . . Moses saw God.

Moses knew who God is.
 
David, after sinning grievously, grew despondent. . . . and wrote a lot of Psalms to try to bring himself back to the spirit he once had, of being close to God. In Psalm 110 he spoke of the Saviour who would make the atonement for sin for mankind, relating that YHVH (Jehovah) spoke to Jesus and said "Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool."

David knew who God is. And who our Saviour is.
 
The Apostle Paul quoted David in his exposition to the Hebrews concerning the identity of their God and their Messiah. . . . .

Paul also met the resurrected Saviour.

Evidently, Paul knew who God is.
 
Daniel prophesied of the last Judgment. . . .. describing how the Messiah would be brought before "the Ancient of Days", and how the Messiah would there and then be crowned and receive the Kingdom, to the praise of all the righteous.

Daniel knew who God is, and who the Messiah is.

And, evidently, a whole lot of other people will realize that fact one day.
 
Most of us, when we imagine GOD, haven't really got any clue. We imagine a force, something other than "human", of immense power capable of speaking a word and just causing the Universe to roll into existence. We are looking for a logical "beginning" or a logical entity capable of causing existence.

Moe has made the point with me that this notion is in itself incoherent because obvious "GOD" had to exist first, somehow, in order to be able to do such wonders. Smart girl, that Moe.

I have conceded that somehow the focus in early Mormonism went to the covenant-maker and the Saviour more than to the notion of "Creator of the Universe". The Bible also ascribes to GOD various notions or roles or attributes of actions. . . . including "speaking" and causing the World to roll into being. . . . though it does not say specifically that it rolled into being out of nothing. A fine point the theologians who wrote the explanation of the Trinity around four hundred years after Christ apparently ignored, because they sought to ascribe to "GOD" every imaginable accomplishment and virtue and characteristic.

The Trinity concept pushes the notion of monotheism to the extreme in saying "GOD" is a mystery we will never comprehend. . . . somehow, GOD is everything. . . .though it cannot really "make sense".

Constantine and those clerics didn't know who God is.
 
But the clearest teaching about who God is is in the teachings of Jesus, and the four Gospels of the New Testament.

Jesus said he did not come here to do his own will, or to teach his own doctrine. . . . but set an example for us all in submitting to the will of His Father. At Gethsemane, he plead that if possible, could his imminent suffering be just passed from him, and then said "Not my will, but Thy will be done".

Jesus knew who God the Father is. . . . . and he knew who He is.
 
The fact that Mormon teaching on the identity and personhood of our Heavenly Father and our Saviour is the only actually Biblical doctrine on the subject is the principal reason most converts to Mormonism have for joining the LDS Church.
 
Romans 8:16-17 is one of hundreds of clearly stated propositions of Mormon doctrine on the the identity of GOD and Jesus:

"The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: And if children, then heirs: and joint heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together."
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Yep.

Paul knew who God is, and who Jesus is.
 
babe said:
Well, according to the Bible, there will be a time when the world will be as wicked as it ever was, and then there will be some consequences.

I think God plans to do just this in ushering in the Millenium.

My point is that in a democracy, what is "normal" determines the perspective or focus of government. If we are all very well described by the clinical diagnosis, we are a sick society. But this is also one of the unhappy characteristics of "Democracy". In a "Democracy", will the government undertake to make nuthouse cases out of the vast majority of it's people?

I offer this as a first proof we are no longer a democracy, but a fascist totalitarian State. . . . a wannabe fascist totalitarian World. . . . and we have the professional psychiatrists to prove it. They have a diagnosis for everyone. . . . well, for everyone who isn't "somebody", and we are at the point of having enough laws to throw everyone in jail for one reason or another. . . . well. . . . unless you are one of the elite who is above the silliness of "law", and for courts are empowered to order mass medications of all of us. . .. except of course, if you're "special" somehow. . . . .

I really don't think ordinary people with fairly routine excessive tendencies all need to be "fixed", or labeled with a sophisticated-sounding malady that for most of us just means "clever" and "selfish". And I do sincerely believe we should not be rounding up our Napoleons in every avenue of life, folks who by strategy and focus attain some kind of dominance in their chosen field of labor. . .. elites, so to speak.... . At most, I think we should choose political leaders who show the better characteristics of service and faithfulness to the rights of the common man. And I definitely do not think this nice LDS lady who actually realized how awful she's been on an instance or two is a pathological case. There are many who have never confessed their sins.

most clever, selfish unrepentant sinners are not pathological cases either. Just people who need to admit their wrongs and decide to cut a better path.
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babe said:
I differ in fact from your willingness to consider Obama and Pelosi "sociopaths". Scale has nothing to do with the disease process that affects an individual brain. We like to imagine that "human" brains are naturally endowed with certain affections and virtues beneficial to social interactions. Experience in social relations is a conditioning history. The lack of conditioning is what the psychiatrists are calling a mental disorder. The "science" behind such "clinical pathologies" is really just a collective will to see things in such a way, a "conditioning history" shared by professionals who use the same handbook.

Christian theology might be a comparable "conditioning history" for those who believe it, which differs from the socialist educational regime of our "professional psychiatrists". Christian theology sets forth a view that an alienation event (the Fall of Adam) has separated us from God, and given us a natural tendency towards "sin" of all kinds, and that it takes a choice on our part to accept the Atonement and invite God back into our souls. Some Christians pray "Come into my heart, Lord Jesus" with the sense that Jesus will heal and restore us to the good potential of "humanity".

You have the choice, God has the power to heal.

The real salvation of any nation is the willingness of its people to be healed.
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babe said:
so, if I set aside the bit about Christian Theology for a while, I would still not consider Napleon, ( or. . . Mao, Stalin, Hitler, Lenin or a hundred other more petty but equally atrocious modern dictators whether socialist or more blatant conspicuous consumers with a penchant for accumulating personal perogatives who have succeeded in gaining dictatorial powers over some people in some places for a space of some time), to be sociopaths or psychopaths of any kind. They are normal people. Their chief problem in the whole sphere of public perceptions is simply the scale of notice. Not very many people know about, or can discuss, the behavior of the neighbor down the road a piece who is in every aspect just as willing to abuse others for personal convenience or gain.

Obama, Pelosi, and Reid are clearly acting within a social context. . . . call it a "social contract". . . . that depends on significant social acceptance or social justification of their pet projects. We have a massive institutional mainstream media whose supporting propaganda is vital to their plans. The fact that the ownership of our mainstream media, and the cartels in other areas of our economy, sorta dovetail into a relatively small number of actual decision-makers, simply reduces the equation.

Most of the publicly visible "leaders" we have are fairly impotent players. . . puppets with strings attached. . . . .

Obama is a "plantation manager" with the smile and manners of the average shoeshine boy. Pelosi and Reid are just as eager to please. Nope, no sociopaths on this list.

In the higher circles of power today, there is still a "culture" that prevails and governs among the more "elite". These people have manners, friends, and know how to get along with one another. They just share a common view in some major respects about the things that need to be done.
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babe said:
So, as I am boiling it all down, what we have is a "professional" gang of psychiatrists who have agreed on the terms to be used in classifying the little people, and who have agreed to experiment upon them the use of various treatments and pharmaceutical "treatments", in the attempt to manipulate the poor little normal people they are empowered to "treat".

The "science" behind the clinical diagnostic criteria is not objective, but subjective and arising from the socialist perspective the "scientists" have been trained to accept.
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Okay, I see we have come back to your rejection of any type of authority. This time it is directed at psychiatrists. I really don't disagree with most of the excellent points you make. Yes, the mental health field is over-reaching in conjunction with Big Pharma. I did undermine myself by including pelosi and reid in the sociopath category...liberals are their own special crazy...making decisions that negatively effect millions with little thought.

But we really do have a "predators on the loose" problem. If government ain't going to take care of it, as is their job, then what are they good for?
 
PKM said:
Could we get one comprehensive list?
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That was the short list.

The Bible describes, in a number of places, visions of God sitting on a throne in Heaven, with millions of people singing, praising. . . . my best guess is those millions do/will know God.
 
PKM said:
Could we get one comprehensive list?
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Pacific Gardens Missions has a list, somewhat abbreviated. . . ..

People whose lives have been changed by accepting Jesus, praying for Jesus to come into their hearts and heal them of a thousand maladies of the soul. Well, one malady of the soul. . . that being essentially not inviting Him in. I like the PGM list, especially the few thousand who have been exemplified in their program Unshackled.

They might be talking about a lesser kind of "knowing". . . .. but I could argue that in fact that kind of "knowing" is the greater kind. . . . the kind Joseph Smith spoke of when he said "A man is saved no faster than he gains knowledge". I might have added two words to that sentence: "of God". Or I could make a pretty good essay on the subject about how the people who approach God with humility rather than "objective fact" and "presumptive but dismissive intellectual egoism" equating roughly with being a "knowitall", are the ones who really understand God.
 
PearlWatson said:
Okay, I see we have come back to your rejection of any type of authority. This time it is directed at psychiatrists. I really don't disagree with most of the excellent points you make. Yes, the mental health field is over-reaching in conjunction with Big Pharma. I did undermine myself by including pelosi and reid in the sociopath category...liberals are their own special crazy...making decisions that negatively effect millions with little thought.

But we really do have a "predators on the loose" problem. If government ain't going to take care of it, as is their job, then what are they good for?
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well, the short answer is. . . . . not much.
 
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