Looking for a new team

[fishonjazz]

I'd put LeBron as drafted. If any other team had drafted LeBron, I don't think he'd be in Cleveland.

The point is, the ONLY shot we have at a star is Exum
Or the draft. If Exum is a couple years away, lets maximize our chances at success and shoot for the draft.

And, as bad as Philly is, they have hope. Embiid might be in the summer league this year. They will get Simmons. They have Saric. They have Okafir. Between Okafor, Embiid and Simmons, they have three potential all stars.

We have Exum. Plus, they can attract free agents better than we can. Oh, and by the way, we've been to the playoffs as much as Philly since Deron left: once.

I think that philly has done the right thing.... As ugly as it has been.
They have had some bad luck. Noel injury, wiggins and parker being off the board when they pick and kat and russell being off the board too. Embiid always being hurt. The lottery has not been very kind to them. If things had worked out with ping pong balls that might have towns and wiggins instead of embiid and okafor.

They also have not drafted very well with the draft positions they did have. I think noel and mcw were not the best picks.

Overall I think their strategy has not been bad but the execution has not worked out. Maybe simmons is that home run pick and it all works out for them.


I agree with your plan for what the jazz should do but I'm just not as committed to it as you are and I'm too ready for the jazz to win and make the playoffs now. I have decent patience (I have been pretty optimistic for a while now while we have been losing) but it would be tough for me to see us gut the team and start over.

I'm hoping that we can use the combo we have of really good but not great players, cap space, young untapped potential with our young guys, and tons of draft picks to acquire the star that we both believe the jazz need.

Im thinking they might be able to do it without gutting the team. That's my preference.

 

[green]

Millsap and Jefferson leaving opened up the salary dump trade from Golden State in which we brought in Rodney Hood, Shelvin Mack, 2017 unprotected pick, and 2016 and 2017 2nd round picks. Hardly nothing.

Wow. We let two borderline All Stars walk so we could get Hood an average NBA starter? And a bunch of late draft picks that will turn into...

DL didn't draft Kanter did he? I don't think it's necessarily his fault to see that Kanter has talent and put faith in his new coach to develop him and keep him as a core piece. It didn't work and Kanter burned the bridge. Hindsight is 20/20

The fact of the matter is Kanter was a #3 pick that we gave away. That sucks. Maybe that miss is more on KOC than on DL, but the development and giving him away for nothing was on DL. We had Kanter under contract. Kanter had no options. We had options and DL gave him away. And honestly, I don't mind this that much in a vaccuum. But when you make a list of all the misses, this looks that much worse.

What does this even mean? We either sign him to a max so he didn't talk to other teams or he goes and talks to other teams and we match a max?

One, you let Hayward see what the outside world is like. This is really a minor detail. BUT, you allow others to woo Hayward and place the seed in his mind that the grass is greener on the other side. Also, you show Hayward that you don't value him. When he is a FA next summer, teams will use that as their opening line: "We LOVE you and NEVER would have let you visit other teams like Utah did". Finally, by waiting until the summer, you allowed Hayward to sign a deal that lets him opt out after three years. Had Utah maxed him out when they signed Favors, he would be under contract for a longer time.

Big mistake by Utah.

This is so short-sighted as well. We probably ended up with the better coach.

Hornacek has won 48 games and he did it with a less talented team. Snyder can't say that. As of right now, looking at record and accomplishments, Hornacek is the better coach. I hope Snyder passes him by, but at this moment, letting Horny walk so Corbin didn't have to get fired was a mistake. At worst, we should have made Horny an interm coach and see what he could do.

Horny's offense is what the NBA is right now. It is successful. Snyder runs the slowest offense in the league. Maybe it's a talent issue. If so, then that's another strike on DL. Maybe it's a coaching issue. If so, then we are screwed.

 

[green]

I think that philly has done the right thing.... As ugly as it has been.
They have had some bad luck. Noel injury, wiggins and parker being off the board when they pick and kat and russell being off the board too. Embiid always being hurt. The lottery has not been very kind to them. If things had worked out with ping pong balls that might have towns and wiggins instead of embiid and okafor.

They also have not drafted very well with the draft positions they did have. I think noel and mcw were not the best picks.

Overall I think their strategy has not been bad but the execution has not worked out. Maybe simmons is that home run pick and it all works out for them.


I agree with your plan for what the jazz should do but I'm just not as committed to it as you are and I'm too ready for the jazz to win and make the playoffs now. I have decent patience (I have been pretty optimistic for a while now while we have been losing) but it would be tough for me to see us gut the team and start over.

I'm hoping that we can use the combo we have of really good but not great players, cap space, young untapped potential with our young guys, and tons of draft picks to acquire the star that we both believe the jazz need.

Im thinking they might be able to do it without gutting the team. That's my preference.

I know. I keep flip flopping back and forth. It would suck to start over again, but it would suck to be stuck in that Millsap/Jefferson realm again of winning 42-45 games a year then have Exum and Gobert do what Hayward will do and leave for a better team. We are turning into Minnesota.

I've said this 1,000 times, but the playoffs pissed me off. It's embarrassing that we couldn't make the playoffs this year. The West SUCKS 5-8. We we suck worse.

If you believe Exum and Gobert are the answer, then let's build around them. Hayward and Favors aren't good enough right now, and will be too old later. So, move them for pieces.

I LOVE Favors. I want him here forever. I still think he is our best player right now. BUT, if we can move him to compliment Exum, who I believe will be an All Star or better, then that is the smart thing to do.

If the goal is to make the Miller's money, then stay the course, add a couple vets and make the playoffs as a 7-8 seed the next couple of years. The Miller's will be rolling and they can open another race park.

If the goal is to win a title, then let's build around Exum.

 

[Stoked]

LOL, I am enjoying this tbh.

 

[MDAV28]

Wow. We let two borderline All Stars walk so we could get Hood an average NBA starter? And a bunch of late draft picks that will turn into...

Hood is one of the best young wings. Who knows who the late picks will turn into, we have done extremely well with the late picks. You said nothing, we got a lot more than nothing. Plus you keep contradicting yourself. You say we should tank and agree to build through the draft. Keeping Millsap is not tanking. We wouldn't have been in position to snag Exum. But of course, somebody was offering 3 unprotected lottery picks for Millsap in your imaginary hypothetical world but DL is so incompetent he turned it down.

The fact of the matter is Kanter was a #3 pick that we gave away. That sucks. Maybe that miss is more on KOC than on DL, but the development and giving him away for nothing was on DL. We had Kanter under contract. Kanter had no options. We had options and DL gave him away. And honestly, I don't mind this that much in a vaccuum. But when you make a list of all the misses, this looks that much worse.

What were the "options" again? DL, like any rationale human, realizes we are in Utah. You must keep the talent you have and try to develop it. You aren't hitting in free agency, you aren't getting return value unless you develop your talent. It's easy to say "Kanter didn't work DL ****ed up" after the fact. DL tried everything to make Kanter work and KANTER screwed us over.

One, you let Hayward see what the outside world is like. This is really a minor detail. BUT, you allow others to woo Hayward and place the seed in his mind that the grass is greener on the other side. Also, you show Hayward that you don't value him. When he is a FA next summer, teams will use that as their opening line: "We LOVE you and NEVER would have let you visit other teams like Utah did". Finally, by waiting until the summer, you allowed Hayward to sign a deal that lets him opt out after three years. Had Utah maxed him out when they signed Favors, he would be under contract for a longer time.

Big mistake by Utah.

Lots of hypotheticals and lots of hindsight. Was Hayward at the time worth a max? No way. Literally go back and name one person here or anywhere that said we need to give Hayward a max extension.

Hornacek has won 48 games and he did it with a less talented team. Snyder can't say that. As of right now, looking at record and accomplishments, Hornacek is the better coach. I hope Snyder passes him by, but at this moment, letting Horny walk so Corbin didn't have to get fired was a mistake. At worst, we should have made Horny an interm coach and see what he could do.

Horny's offense is what the NBA is right now. It is successful. Snyder runs the slowest offense in the league. Maybe it's a talent issue. If so, then that's another strike on DL. Maybe it's a coaching issue. If so, then we are screwed.

Snyder had a near top 10 offense for a large part of last season hate to break it to you.

 

[MDAV28]

Complaining about letting Millsap and Jefferson walk and then following up by saying the only way for us to contend is to tank and Exum is our only shot at a superstar is comical. How do you think we got Exum?

 

[NAOS]

Complaining about letting Millsap and Jefferson walk and then following up by saying the only way for us to contend is to tank and Exum is our only shot at a superstar is comical. How do you think we got Exum?

you're destroying green, BUT you're also wasting your time.

green and Hack are the "masters" of engineering hindsight-style observations into the most insane present-tense arguments on JFC.

 

[green]

Complaining about letting Millsap and Jefferson walk and then following up by saying the only way for us to contend is to tank and Exum is our only shot at a superstar is comical. How do you think we got Exum?

Sigh. I love internet smart people. Do I really need to break this down, or are you just posting to feel smart?

 

[green]

Hood is one of the best young wings. Who knows who the late picks will turn into, we have done extremely well with the late picks. You said nothing, we got a lot more than nothing. Plus you keep contradicting yourself. You say we should tank and agree to build through the draft. Keeping Millsap is not tanking. We wouldn't have been in position to snag Exum. But of course, somebody was offering 3 unprotected lottery picks for Millsap in your imaginary hypothetical world but DL is so incompetent he turned it down.



What were the "options" again? DL, like any rationale human, realizes we are in Utah. You must keep the talent you have and try to develop it. You aren't hitting in free agency, you aren't getting return value unless you develop your talent. It's easy to say "Kanter didn't work DL ****ed up" after the fact. DL tried everything to make Kanter work and KANTER screwed us over.



Lots of hypotheticals and lots of hindsight. Was Hayward at the time worth a max? No way. Literally go back and name one person here or anywhere that said we need to give Hayward a max extension.



Snyder had a near top 10 offense for a large part of last season hate to break it to you.

Hood being one of our best wings is the PROBLEM. He isn't that good. He is a solid starter. Nothing more.

What is it about Utah fans and falling in love with average players? First it was Brewer, then Burks, now Hood.

 

[franklin]

Can anyone explain to me why the Jazz wasted the #3 pick on Kanter? I said before the draft that he was way too unathletic to become anything special in the NBA. Now, if an internet thug like myself can see this then why couldn't the Jazz organization? They did, of course, but they needed to sell tickets and create drama instead of putting a good product on the floor.

 

[fishonjazz]

Can anyone explain to me why the Jazz wasted the #3 pick on Kanter? I said before the draft that he was way too unathletic to become anything special in the NBA. Now, if an internet thug like myself can see this then why couldn't the Jazz organization? They did, of course, but they needed to sell tickets and create drama instead of putting a good product on the floor.

You were right. But the professionals in the draft biz had him as the 3rd best prospect in that draft for the most part. I even remember a few saying he should be the #1 pick.

He looked really good in workouts. Had great range, was dunking from the free throw line, had post moves and good footwork.

You were right on that one and the pros were wrong. The draft is a crapshoot to a certain extent.

Every team misses on drafts.

Jan vessley lololololol.

 

[green]

KOC wasn't too great at his draft record. It seems like he missed a lot. The trade up to take Deron might argue otherwise, but let's be real, the choice was between Deron and Chris Paul and you could argue that he made the wrong pick there as well.

 

[fishonjazz]

KOC wasn't too great at his draft record. It seems like he missed a lot. The trade up to take Deron might argue otherwise, but let's be real, the choice was between Deron and Chris Paul and you could argue that he made the wrong pick there as well.

I really really wanted them to pick cp3. Couldn't really go wrong either way but I remember comparing their college seasons against each other statically and cp3 was better in almost every category, and was younger. And didn't have any tattoos!

I think that they chose d-will 100% due to his size. And I don't really fault them for that but I think it was the wrong pick. Deron was bad *** though.

 

[green]

I freaking loved Deron. Still do. Would take him back on the Jazz in a heartbeat. He brought swagger. Maybe the Jazz aren't better with Paul than Deron. Maybe Deron had whatever "it" was to get Boozer to be better. Deron was balls out though.

 

[jacktheripper]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nmoIuAcbIb4

 

[franklin]

You were right. But the professionals in the draft biz had him as the 3rd best prospect in that draft for the most part. I even remember a few saying he should be the #1 pick.

He looked really good in workouts. Had great range, was dunking from the free throw line, had post moves and good footwork.

You were right on that one and the pros were wrong. The draft is a crapshoot to a certain extent.

Every team misses on drafts.

Jan vessley lololololol.

This is essentially a consensus or copycat explanation for why the Jazz should have picked Kanter. It is true this is a copycat league. Do you want the Jazz to be the copycats chasing tail or do you want them to be the team everyone else tries to mimic? I want them to lead the pack, not follow in desperation. They had that chance with both the wasted Kanter pick and the wasted Exum pick and failed to take opportunity when handed it on a silver platter.

Do you remember what Danny Ainge was offering pre-draft 2016? The Utah Jazz, specifically Dennis Lindsey and KOC, failed to be opportunistic in that environment. They failed to be opportunistic with Isaiah Thomas or Reggie Jackson. They failed to be opportunistic with Rajon Rondo.

They are more or less selling the notion of playing in the copycat league while being overly conservative to the point of doom and raking in money by having the 2nd lowest payroll in the league. @GordonMonson @DennisLindsey This team could have won 50+ games last season had DL utilized all his precious cap space to obtain a piece, many who were extremely cheap acquires. Now we talk of trading useful assets for that piece. That's bull ****. Go find me an Isaiah Thomas, a Dragic, and tell us all why the hell you did not take on Reggie Jackson. For fear of insulting a bust named Trey Burke or Exum? We went through that with AJ-Sap-Favors-Kanter and the cream still rose to the top. Or the bottom. Go get some talent and make 'em earn a spot. You can always trade talent.

 

[NAOS]

This is essentially a consensus or copycat explanation for why the Jazz should have picked Kanter. It is true this is a copycat league. Do you want the Jazz to be the copycats chasing tail or do you want them to be the team everyone else tries to mimic? I want them to lead the pack, not follow in desperation. They had that chance with both the wasted Kanter pick and the wasted Exum pick and failed to take opportunity when handed it on a silver platter.

Do you remember what Danny Ainge was offering pre-draft 2016? The Utah Jazz, specifically Dennis Lindsey and KOC, failed to be opportunistic in that environment. They failed to be opportunistic with Isaiah Thomas or Reggie Jackson. They failed to be opportunistic with Rajon Rondo.

They are more or less selling the notion of playing in the copycat league while being overly conservative to the point of doom and raking in money by having the 2nd lowest payroll in the league. @GordonMonson @DennisLindsey This team could have won 50+ games last season had DL utilized all his precious cap space to obtain a piece, many who were extremely cheap acquires. Now we talk of trading useful assets for that piece. That's bull ****. Go find me an Isaiah Thomas, a Dragic, and tell us all why the hell you did not take on Reggie Jackson. For fear of insulting a bust named Trey Burke or Exum? We went through that with AJ-Sap-Favors-Kanter and the cream still rose to the top. Or the bottom. Go get some talent and make 'em earn a spot. You can always trade talent.

nope. Gotta cakk. Talent allergy, like gluten.

 

[7StraightIsGreat]

My advice to the OP, if it's just as simple as choosing a new team for you, GTFO as soon as possible please. I (and many others in here) don't have a choice when it comes to our fandom, regardless of how we feel about ownership, the FO, coaching, etc.

Just watch: Exum comes back healthy, Jazz get deeper on the bench via the draft/FA, injuries don't hit us as hard. All of a sudden, Utah's a 4-5 seed in the West, Gordon is signing a new contract, and "Fans" like the OP are flying his Jazz flag high.

 

[franklin]

My advice to the OP, if it's just as simple as choosing a new team for you, GTFO as soon as possible please. I (and many others in here) don't have a choice when it comes to our fandom, regardless of how we feel about ownership, the FO, coaching, etc.

Just watch: Exum comes back healthy, Jazz get deeper on the bench via the draft/FA, injuries don't hit us as hard. All of a sudden, Utah's a 4-5 seed in the West, Gordon is signing a new contract, and "Fans" like the OP are flying his Jazz flag high.

It would be great if I could jump back on the bandwagon. For now, I'm waiting to see what the Clippers do this summer, researching Cleveland, L.A., and possibly Toronto. I really like Toronto's product and the Lakers' too. But I have to research the organization first before getting emotionally involved.

 

[cowhide]

I agree that drafting is the way to go.

That's why, if we have a shot at Brooklyn's pick next year, you take it.

Look at it this way:

I wanted us to tank during the strike shortened season. We could have dumped Al and Millsap and added Lillard AND Barnes to the team.

I wanted us to give up Kanter, Millsap and anyone else for Harden.

I wanted us to sit players and actually tanks when we tanked and gone after Wiggins. Luckily, I still think Exum will be a top 2 player from that draft.

My point is what GVC was saying better:

The Jazz don't know what they want. They say they want one thing, but the Miller's want another ($$$) and they start down one road, then reverse course, then reverse course again and end up doing nothing.

The Jazz had 8 million in cap room. There is NO excuse for not making the playoffs this year. Yet, they did not make the playoffs.

What happens is Utah doesn't make the playoffs next year, Hayward walks, and Hornacek does make the playoffs in NY?

The Jazz missed the playoffs by one game while not having their starting PG for the whole season, Burks for 40 games, and both Favors and Gobert missed double digit games and were playing at less than 100 percent most of the season. You don't just spend money for the sake of spending money when you have all the young guys we have.

I agree that the Jazz should have done a better job finding vets who are role players who can actually contribute. Our bench was horrible due part to injury and the Jazz front office not bringing in better players. The Hornacek love is beyond ridiculous. I loved him as a player but he hasn't really done squat as a coach. I think he is a good coach and wish him well in NY but come on he isn't John Wooden.