Looking for genuine discourse re: Donald Sterling/NBA

[fishonjazz]

the mob trying to crucify sterling is just like the salem witch trials.
and other ignorant mob mentality throughout history

in hindsight everytime mob took up pitchforks it has been wrong.

Salem witch trials lol....
Burning women at a stake because they are accused of being witches = fining a billionaire and not letting him go to nba games.

 

[sirkickyass]

I came in here looking to see if people were going to claim Sterling's first amendment rights had been violated.

Was not disappointed.

Silly jazzfanz. Don't ever change.

 

[framer]

I guess that my final reaction is that in America, the process we use to get somewhere is just as important as the end result. Sterling sucks and is likely a bad person AND he is bad for the NBA. The way they "got" him was pretty disgusting, however. Sometimes letting bad people off should be the price of maintaining the integrity of the process. I'm certainly not down with the "thoughtcrime" police be it legally or in the court of public opinion.

 

[HighlandHomie]

Again, I'm not defending Sterling in any way whatsoever - he's a deplorable dreg who I couldn't care less about - but it is rich that Magic Johnson just tweeted celebrating D'Antoni's resignation. The guy who the media blow-hards/mob public who cried, "how can you hate Magic, 'one of the all-time great people' in the league,'" on their way to his defense, reveals a really dark and morally reprehensible side of his character 24 hours after Sterling is banished. You can't make this **** up! I'm no tin foil hat man, but people need to wake up.

 

[DutchJazzer]

I came in here looking to see if people were going to claim Sterling's first amendment rights had been violated.

Was not disappointed.

Silly jazzfanz. Don't ever change.

so your a laywer. what do you think about his right to privacy and freedom?
like in his private quaters?

 

[sirkickyass]

so your a laywer. what do you think about his right to privacy and freedom?
like in his private quaters?

The government didn't do anything to him. There is no conceivable first amendment issue.

Apparently he even requested that the tapes be made (generally, rather than this specific tape), so there's no potential private claim for surreptitious taping.

He may have some kind of tort available to him for leaking property that presumably he owns (given that it was probably recorded on equipment he owns and on a medium that he owns and he presumably owns the content as a result) but that's totally separate from any civil rights issues.

He doesn't have a right to be free from the consequences of his actions, and that's what people are asking for when they defend him on this one. You can argue that the consequences are unfair but that's a separate issue altogether than of his rights to free speech.

 

[DutchJazzer]

The government didn't do anything to him. There is no conceivable first amendment issue.

Apparently he even requested that the tapes be made (generally, rather than this specific tape), so there's no potential private claim for surreptitious taping.

He may have some kind of tort available to him for leaking property that presumably he owns (given that it was probably recorded on equipment he owns and on a medium that he owns and he presumably owns the content as a result) but that's totally separate from any civil rights issues.

He doesn't have a right to be free from the consequences of his actions, and that's what people are asking for when they defend him on this one. You can argue that the consequences are unfair but that's a separate issue altogether than of his rights to free speech.

so everything u say in private thats get out. can be used agaisnt you.

but seriously, who hasnt said things in private that are comparable.
out of frustation. or bigotry.

Everybody.

so isnt it hypocritical to crucify him

 

[Surely]

Isn't it illegal in California to secretly record a phone call?

I found this little gem and thought it showed the hypocrisy quite nicely.

4. Various rappers have come out of the wordwork to express their dismay over Sterling’s remarks. It’s impossible to ignore the irony when we get this kind of faux-indignation from the precise people responsible for hurting more black kids in more ways than a thousand Donald Sterlings ever could. Racist NBA owners might result in hurt feelings, but the self-destructive culture peddled by these record industry predators results in funerals and prison time for black inner city children. I’m happy to know that Snoop Dogg — writer of such poetic lyrics as “b*tches ain’t **** but hoes and tricks” — thinks that Sterling should be ashamed of his repulsive rhetoric. Now that we know how sensitive Snoop Dogg is, let’s just hope he never listens to a Snoop Dogg song.

 

[moevillini]

ooh ooh, someone's wading into deep doo-doo - cultural relativism and all that whatever...

 

[One Brow]

It is a problem that I do not think has a cut and dry answer. I do however agree that it is a symptom of a larger problem and not a cause. Although it certainly does not help.

It comes from a wide range of things. To name a few: The dramatic failing to properly educate inner city youth (usually have high %s of minorities) by society at large. The glorification of the "thug" lifestyle by the entertainment industry. Societies drift from the value of the nuclear family (I am including any family with two parents).

Those are all factors. I would add society's propensity to jail young men and refusal to hire them, as well.

 

[Stoked]

Those are all factors. I would add society's propensity to jail young men and refusal to hire them, as well.

True.

 

[One Brow]

It is more pronounced in the black community right now based on culture,

Actually, as it was just pointed out, unwed motherhood is decreasing in the black community, and I sincerely doubt you know enough about the black community to comment cogently on its culture.

...but that doesn't mean that everyone else isn't hell bent on getting there too.

The percent of unwed mothers has been steady for the last few years.

Is Bill Cosby one of my "ilk," because he is right there with me. . .

No doubt Cosby himself will soon show up to endorse your every word, because there's no way you could be picking and choosing selectively from the many, many positions he has taken, right? If Cosby says it, you believe it?

Also, this borders on a personal attack, no? This is why you can't have discussions with liberal ideologues. . .

How rude of us to be offended at you saying there is some problem with black people. What were we thinking?

 

[One Brow]

It was flippant, yes. But the message is: if you want to decrease pregnancies among the unwed, you teach abstinence and responsibility. If the man doesn't want to put a raincoat on junior, the woman needs to either refuse or use birth control herself. And don't glorify being a single mom. I know several. And it's hell for them. Don't sugarcoat it in the media.

I would agree a lot more strongly if your words did not put the ultimate responsibility for refusing on the woman. Perhaps you did not intend that, but that is how it came out.

 

[Stoked]

Actually, as it was just pointed out, unwed motherhood is decreasing in the black community, and I sincerely doubt you know enough about the black community to comment cogently on its culture.

The percent of unwed mothers has been steady for the last few years.

No doubt Cosby himself will soon show up to endorse your every word, because there's no way you could be picking and choosing selectively from the many, many positions he has taken, right? If Cosby says it, you believe it?

How rude of us to be offended at you saying there is some problem with black people. What were we thinking?

Ugh...

This right here is where you do far more damage to your cause than any good you could ever hope to gain.

Your veiled put downs, smug responses, condescending nature and attacks/references to the lack of knowledge of any on the other side close people off to any value your message might have.

If you truly believe in your message, and I have no reason to doubt that you do, then let it stand on its own merits.

 

[One Brow]

See here I am thinking that assuming culture because of race is stereotyping, which is racism, no? Or is it possible that racism is whatever Franklin and company want it to be at any given moment depending upon their mood. . .

Honestly, at this point, you have a couple of paths to take. You can keep trying to defend yourself (the usual result is that you dig yourself a deeper hole), or you can stop, carefully listen to why we are saying this, and think about it before you respond further. I strongly recommend the second option.

 

[One Brow]

You want to fix inner city education, expand school choice.

So far, school choice has not yielded better success overall. For every school that improved results, there is another were the results were worse than public schools.

(Can't do that because some kids my be educated by Christianists!)

So, you approve of Muslims and atheists using public funds to indoctrinate your kids? Or, is it just Christians?

You want more responsible men, stop glorifying misogynists in our culture, and stop with the double standards.

I bet we have a *very* different picture of which misogynists we need to stop glorifying.

Bread and Circuses.

There we agree.

 

[One Brow]

Again, I'm not defending Sterling in any way whatsoever - he's a deplorable dreg who I couldn't care less about - but it is rich that Magic Johnson just tweeted celebrating D'Antoni's resignation. The guy who the media blow-hards/mob public who cried, "how can you hate Magic, 'one of the all-time great people' in the league,'" on their way to his defense, reveals a really dark and morally reprehensible side of his character 24 hours after Sterling is banished. You can't make this **** up! I'm no tin foil hat man, but people need to wake up.

I'm confused on why celebrating the resignation of D'Antoni reveals a really dark and morally reprehensible side of his character. Could you explain that further, please?

 

[One Brow]

Isn't it illegal in California to secretly record a phone call?

I found this little gem and thought it showed the hypocrisy quite nicely.

That little gem showed a great deal of ignorance regarding the reality of the reasons for the funerals and jail time among young black men. It's as stupid as the people who thought Buddy Holly was possessed by the devil.

 

[Stoked]

So far, school choice has not yielded better success overall. For every school that improved results, there is another were the results were worse than public schools.



So, you approve of Muslims and atheists using public funds to indoctrinate your kids? Or, is it just Christians?



I bet we have a *very* different picture of which misogynists we need to stop glorifying.



There we agree.

Personaly I think that is part of the correct solution for the education problem. It certainly wont fix it on its own but it will contribute to the solution. But we need true school choice. Where it is not only open to certain people based on certain paramaters. Open it up to all and first come first serve. Then we need to focus on those schools that are performing the worst.

In that vein of discussion I think that the requirements, and as a result the pay, to be a teacher should be dramtically increased. I also think that tenure should be merit based and chosen by a council that includes teachers. That bad teachers, as decided by that same council, should be easier to fire.

 

[One Brow]

This right here is where you do far more damage to your cause than any good you could ever hope to gain.

Your veiled put downs, smug responses, condescending nature and attacks/references to the lack of knowledge of any on the other side close people off to any value your message might have.

If you truly believe in your message, and I have no reason to doubt that you do, then let it stand on its own merits.

There are probably people that truly come around based on clear, rational thought. There are also people who come around based on naked anger, trying to figure out why they are causing it. I'm not going to hide my anger in pursuit of the former, while potentially disregarding the latter.