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Millsap and Hayward to Cavs?

I dont even remember neg repping you at all but whatever. And I've put several messages regarding why you want Al gone so bad. But you didn't answer the ?, why do you hate him so much? And I don't see a lot of people that want him gone so bad

1) I don't hate Jefferson. He's a good guy. I hate him as a player on the Jazz.
2) You have to have not been paying attention to not have seen any reasons by me or others to ditch the guy.
3) It's pretty simple; he's got a flickering 40-watt lightbulb upstairs and doesn't play a WINNING game.

Winning is FAR more than scoring points by yourself. He's a plainly sloppy passer, in addition to making poor reads, not recognizing double-teams, and not knowing what to do when they happen. His shot-selection is sometimes horrible and he's not a versatile scorer. He's bad on the pick-and-roll, the first few months were possibly worse than anyone I've ever seen (or at least that I've paid attention too). It took him 6.5 seasons to learn how to catch a ball while moving. He's not great at setting picks in general, but his understanding of the nuances of the plays that come from it is completely non-existent. HE'S SLOW, more mentally than anything else. He makes a decision on what he's going to do with the ball regardless of what the defense or offense is doing. He requires an acre down low to operate, thus obliterating the motion of the offense, in other words, it stops when he touches the ball. Even if the Jazz HAD the shooters to punish double-teams on the low-block, he has such bad court-awareness and fluidity that it wouldn't matter. He's not a bad shooter, but it isn't a big enough or strong enough part of his game to open the paint at all, besides that he is a poor passer and wouldn't be able to make the most of it even if he did open the paint. He's an absolute lunk in transition on both sides of the ball. Does nothing there. Doesn't do much off-the-ball generally, really needs the ball in his hands to be effective and isn't very good when others create for him. Isn't good at getting open and making a quick bucket on cross-screen plays because of his lack of understanding of a real set and because he's generally slow. His shooting is limited to spot-up, he doesn't really do it on-the-move or fading (which might be a good thing that he doesn't try). His push-shot is ugly and when it's not on it's horribly off. And he doesn't get to the line. Long story short, he can do one thing well but it hurts the rest of the team since he doesn't understand how to turn that into something that helps others.

He blocks some shots and did a good job containing his assignment this year, but his general awareness of schemes or his speed rotating was poor. His 2 blocks per game don't make up for the shots he gave up because he got lost.

His fundamentals are very poor across the board.

The Jazz allow A LOT fewer points when he's off the court. The Jazz outscore their opponents barely when he's off the court (+0.6) and get outscored when he's on it (-3.3). The Jazz rebounding rate is worse when he's on the court as well.


But yeah, he can put up some shots and make some. There are the reasons why I don't like Jefferson on the Jazz. His losing isn't a pure coincidence, especially when you consider that when he became THE big that the Jazz offense fell apart and the team eventually imploded. After that point, you would expect his stats to explode as the offense would be catered to his one-dimensional game, and unsurprisingly, that's exactly what happened.

I really hope you read this and understand it because even though I haven't completely stopped ranting about this, I'm actually quite sick of saying the same thing over and over. As surprising as that is.
 
1) I don't hate Jefferson. He's a good guy. I hate him as a player on the Jazz.
2) You have to have not been paying attention to not have seen any reasons by me or others to ditch the guy.
3) It's pretty simple; he's got a flickering 40-watt lightbulb upstairs and doesn't play a WINNING game.

Winning is FAR more than scoring points by yourself. He's a plainly sloppy passer, in addition to making poor reads, not recognizing double-teams, and not knowing what to do when they happen. His shot-selection is sometimes horrible and he's not a versatile scorer. He's bad on the pick-and-roll, the first few months were possibly worse than anyone I've ever seen (or at least that I've paid attention too). It took him 6.5 seasons to learn how to catch a ball while moving. He's not great at setting picks in general, but his understanding of the nuances of the plays that come from it is completely non-existent. HE'S SLOW, more mentally than anything else. He makes a decision on what he's going to do with the ball regardless of what the defense or offense is doing. He requires an acre down low to operate, thus obliterating the motion of the offense, in other words, it stops when he touches the ball. Even if the Jazz HAD the shooters to punish double-teams on the low-block, he has such bad court-awareness and fluidity that it wouldn't matter. He's not a bad shooter, but it isn't a big enough or strong enough part of his game to open the paint at all, besides that he is a poor passer and wouldn't be able to make the most of it even if he did open the paint. He's an absolute lunk in transition on both sides of the ball. Does nothing there. Doesn't do much off-the-ball generally, really needs the ball in his hands to be effective and isn't very good when others create for him. Isn't good at getting open and making a quick bucket on cross-screen plays because of his lack of understanding of a real set and because he's generally slow. His shooting is limited to spot-up, he doesn't really do it on-the-move or fading (which might be a good thing that he doesn't try). His push-shot is ugly and when it's not on it's horribly off. And he doesn't get to the line. Long story short, he can do one thing well but it hurts the rest of the team since he doesn't understand how to turn that into something that helps others.

He blocks some shots and did a good job containing his assignment this year, but his general awareness of schemes or his speed rotating was poor. His 2 blocks per game don't make up for the shots he gave up because he got lost.

His fundamentals are very poor across the board.

The Jazz allow A LOT fewer points when he's off the court. The Jazz outscore their opponents barely when he's off the court (+0.6) and get outscored when he's on it (-3.3). The Jazz rebounding rate is worse when he's on the court as well.


But yeah, he can put up some shots and make some. There are the reasons why I don't like Jefferson on the Jazz. His losing isn't a pure coincidence, especially when you consider that when he became THE big that the Jazz offense fell apart and the team eventually imploded. After that point, you would expect his stats to explode as the offense would be catered to his one-dimensional game, and unsurprisingly, that's exactly what happened.

I really hope you read this and understand it because even though I haven't completely stopped ranting about this, I'm actually quite sick of saying the same thing over and over. As surprising as that is.

I don't want to argue over all this crap but I'm sure you would complain if we had Dirk b/c he doesn't rebound at all. You'd probably hate Dwight b/c he can't shoot at all or pass. You'd hate Pau Gasol b/c he is lazy, is soft and is inconsistent. My point is you pointed out some good points on Al but every player has flaws and there not perfect.
 
I don't want to argue over all this crap but I'm sure you would complain if we had Dirk b/c he doesn't rebound at all. You'd probably hate Dwight b/c he can't shoot at all or pass. You'd hate Pau Gasol b/c he is lazy, is soft and is inconsistent. My point is you pointed out some good points on Al but every player has flaws and there not perfect.

So you are making your argument by comparing Al to Dirk, Howard, and Pau? So are you expecting NUMBERICA to concede that that group is largely one and the same?
 
So you are making your argument by comparing Al to Dirk, Howard, and Pau? So are you expecting NUMBERICA to concede that that group is largely one and the same?

No I'm listing some of the best big guys and how he could pick apart them too. I could go one with more too, Bynum isn't the best passer and can't shoot, Boozer is always injured, inconsistent at times and plays no defense, Marc Gasol is not effective in transition and doesn't score a lot, Z-Bo doesn't play D, is slow, can't jump and is undersized ETC
 
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How about this one?

Paul Millsap and the #3 pick to Cleveland for the #1 pick and Anderson Varejao

We then select Derrick Williams #1 overall and Cleveland gets #3 for Kanter and #4 for Brandon Knight. We then select Fredette at #12.

Utah Depth Chart:

PG: Devin Harris, Jimmer Fredette, Earl Watson
SG: Gordon Hayward, C.J. Miles, Raja Bell
SF: Derrick Williams, Andrei Kirlenko (re-signed), Jeremy Evans
PF: Derrick Favors, Mehmet Okur, Jeremy Evans
C: Al Jefferson, Anderson Varejao, Kyrylo Fesenko

Cleveland Depth Chart:

PG: Baron Davis, Brandon Knight, Ramon Sessions
SG: Daniel Gibson, Anthony Parker, Manny Harris
SF: Paul Millsap, Antawn Jameson, Joey Graham
PF: J.J. Hickson, Samardo Samuels, Luke Harangody
C: Enes Kanter, Ryan Hollins, Semih Erden

That's terrible. Sorry, but Baron is not the future of the Cavs. We'll be drafting Irving!
 
red, love that you keep saying we'll be drafting Irving (NO CHANCE), just curious why you fell it's so.
/entertainmentvalue
 
So what you're saying is that you're looking at players trade value instead of his value on the team? That says it all. You honestly think Motiejunas has Bargnani talent? You think a Bargnani type player fits on this team at all? Even in this post you say that you think Knight will be a pretty good player, and then say you're uncertain of him. You say things like the former to make sure you aren't pissing anybody off, and then you say things like the latter to bolster your argument. Stick to your own opinions. Sure, things change, but you're letting yourself be way too influenced by stats and outside sources. WATCH these players play and then use the combination of impressions and combine performance to help mold your opinions. Saying that Motiejunas is worth the risk more than Knight is absolutely mind-blowing and completely idiotic. Motiejunas doesn't have defensive warts, he doesn't have defense at all. Also, drafting a point guard this year doesn't mean he's going to come in right away and be the man. We draft players so they can develop into their potential within a few season and grow from there on. So by your 2-3 years standards, a guy like Knight THIS year would be perfect so by the time Harris' contract runs out, we've got a guy ready to step in and take the reins, rather than drafting somebody that's going to come in and make rookie mistakes for a team that's contending for the playoffs.

I'm nowhere near certain on any of these players, because that's not possible, but I'm giving them their due credit, unlike yourself. You're using your bias to dig yourself deeper and deeper into a hole, while also contradicting yourself every three or four posts. The thing is, I actually agree with some of your evaluations, but the only reason you're arguing that you'd take players like Singleton and Motiejunas over Knight is to make yourself look better for seriously underrating his potential. In the past week you have said that he can be a very good point guard, that you'd take him if we still had the six pick, that the reason you wouldn't take him is because Kanter is the obvious choice at 3 (I agree), while also saying that you'd probably take the likes of Vesely, Motiejunas, Singleton, Valenciunas, Brooks, Biyombo, and other one-dimensional or unkown players because he's a guy that you can get in any daft. He's not going to be the next Drose, Wall, or whoever else, but that doesn't mean he's **** as you're claiming (for now). There's a reason he's projected where he's at. You're flip-flopping your opinions not because of viable information coming in, but because you know you've backed yourself into a corner and are too stubborn to accept it. And that's honestly all I need to know.

Thank you for owning bentley. I love you. Also it has been confirmed bentley has never watched a full uk game. It painfully obvious he does not have a clue as he is the only observer on earth that would put b knight in such low company.
 
I personally think our defensive woes this season were more specifically caused by being burned on the perimeter. I remember at one point early on in the season the Jazz were the best 3point-defending team in the NBA percentage wise, and this quickly fell as the season progresssed. NUMBERICA I am wondering how Al Jefferson caused this said "implosion"?? He was averaging 17 and 8, only a few less than his overall season average. It is impossible to pinpoint what exactly caused our complete collapse; maybe it was faltering teammate chemistry, its hard to say. All i know is Al Jeffersons woes (poor rotational defense, poor passing from the box although it got a lot better towards the end of the year, lack of getting to the line) were consistent throughout the entire season, yet we only played terrible in half of it. On the other hand we saw starters like Bell and Kirilenko getting progressively worse impact-wise, and our bench could not support them. Hayward was not used much at this time, as we all know. Im definitely willing to give Al Jefferson a chance to se if he continues this progress. During the end of the season he played with utmost pride, and tried to correct many of his errors that hes accustomed to. (He started dunking A LOT more; i remember the first time i had seen him dunk was the time he feel on his "buttox". Months later hed have a dunk every game. His blocking went up. His rebounds got better and his scoring got MUCH better, as we all know. Most importantly, he played through injuries, playing all 82 games only 1 year and a half away from rupturing an ACL. Thats the kind of guy I'd want on my team; the fact that he tends to be on losing teams doesnt affect me that much, since I could tell how awful he felt when he started realizing that he wouldnt be making the playoffs with his team again. Winning is important to the guy, and im sure hell instill this pride among his future terammates that get drafted seeing as hell be the teamleader next season. I like him as a leader more than DWill. Im kinda all over the place with this rant, but basically what I want to conclude is to a potential future lineup:

Either
Harris/Knight/Watson
Hayward/Bell/CJ
Singleton/Millsap/CJ
Favors/Millsap/Al Jefferson
Al Jefferson/Favors/Fesenko

Or

Harris/Watson/sign FA
Hayward/Bell/CJ
Singleton/Kirilenko/CJ
Favors/Millsap
Al Jefferson/Kanter

Both of which we have logjams and mroe importantly great trading pieces in these logjams of talent (PF being the most notable) to try and garner wither a PG/SG or even a SF F.A.
Actually take a good look at those starting lineups; Harris is certainly a good enough PG for a nba finals calibre team (hes made it there as option number two already). We all know how good Hayward is becoming. Im just a Singleton fanboy, but I see his defense helping our team as a whole, seeing as he can defend apparently 3-4 positions and will become a vital teammate to practise against throughout the course of the season. Not too mention that his perimeter shooting is improving exponentially from season-to-season, something we desperately need. Not much needs to be said about how good Favors will be. And lastly we have Al Jefferson, a player who we can certainly pound the ball to when the other 4 teammates are slumping. Im DEFINITELY not suggesting we schedule our offense around him, all im sayign is that hes the type of player who can accumulate points no matter how well a team is playing, something that could be extrememly useful if our other 4 players who are all capable of acheiving 15ppg arent having a offesnively structured game. Lastly, and probably most importantly, we have easily one of the best 6th men of the league if Millsap is okay with playing as a super-sub. He could easily hit 20 points on any given night, and give our team much needed boosts when we need them. If we desire, we can hang on to veterans Kirilenko and Bell for experience and leadership while keeping their minutes low. Right now Im excited for the draft in late June, but I have a really good feeling that our team really doesnt need a rebuild. Add a few defenders, adjust our flex offense system (coach Corbins coaching is pretty much make or break here) and we seriously wont be a worse team than the one that went 27-13 last year. We are in an extremely good situation to become a very strong team in a very short period of time, with the amount of draft picks weve accumulated in a very short time span, coupled with young core teammates and a solid amount of defensive veteran players on our team (I seriously hate Bell but he could be well utilized if he doesnt play 34mpg). Our biggest problems last season? Defense, and Perimeter Shooting. Defensively, well have Hayward, hopefully Singleton and Favors, with Bell and Kirilenko coming off the bench and Al Jefferson being decent in terms of man-to-man and his blocking capability. Harris isnt that bad either. Perimeter shooting wise, our rookie averaged 47% from 3 Point Land. Seeing as hell most likely hit 30mpg this season, Hayward will spread the floor very very nicely. Okur's re-emergence coupled with Bells and Cjs lack of minutes will help this as well. Harris also hit a fairly high amount of threes in his time with the Jazz, perhaps our system benefits him more than New Jerseys. Either way, there is certainly an abundance of specialty shooters on the market and we have mroe than enough trading pieces to get a hold of one. This will be our only issue going into the season if there is no lockout this October.
 
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