Move On From Hayward?

[silesian]

If we contend, it will be because of Lyles or Hood over Favors. That guy does not compliment Gobert at all. Lyles is the future of the NBA and Jazz. He could be our star.

Love Lyles but he will never have Favor's athleticism, rebounding and D. I'll take both.

 

[silesian]

People are too worried about our players needing big contracts in the future. .

Some believe that we would be much better off having fewer players who have earned big contracts. Silly, this gives us tough choices to make, but look a the alternative.


The idea that Dante, Lyles and Hood will all command big contracts is nice to think about but a very low probability. More likely that 1/3 will be worthy.

 

[8]

Gotta get rid of Hayward - no way Jazz can pay him the max. That money is needed to sign worse players that are more easily replaceable, or to sign the Jazz player or future draftee that becomes better than Hayward in which case he would be the bee's knees and receive a max contract regardless.

 

[Batman]

I prefer this pic over yours

Sent from my iPhone using JazzFanz mobile app

 

[Cappy_Smurf]

I prefer this pic over yours

She does have a perty mouth.

 

[Douchebag K]

You said Hayward has not been an all star cause his teams have sucked. I gave you names of all stars on teams that sucked. Proving you can make the all star team even when the team you play for sucks.

And i gave you names of all stars that sucked. Seriously tho, my point being the label "all star" is to be taken with a grain of salt. The West is loaded.

Personally i don't think Gordo's at all star level yet but he's very very close.

 

[Douchebag K]

People exaggerate it but there is a benefit of having a true #1 scorer (even if just average defender). Everyone knows their roles, the game is simpler in crunch time. No senseless back and forth passing. The Jazz have led the league in passes but last or near last in assists for two years now.

How's that idea working out for Kyrie Irving ?

 

[Douchebag K]

These are very good points and questions. Hayward is a good player. But so was AK yet the contract destroyed out chances of building something that could contend. The same could be said about Ostertag long ago. His contract kept us from adding that much needed additional piece.

We can't be scared when we have a solid foundation built and throw money at a guy because we think we can't do better. As Jazz fans, we sometimes pucker up when we shouldn't and throw too much cash when we shouldn't. I just know that Hayward isn't a $25 million player. He's just not. He will never be that guy who carries us with the star power needed to get that 50-50 call. Or be that guy to get emotional to lift the team. Or be the guy to be unstoppable when we need an unstoppable force.

Sent from my VS980 4G using JazzFanz mobile app

Mate you did not answer one part of my question. Firstly the market will absolutely say that Hayward is a $25 mil player whether you like it or not. To argue that is just displaying your ignorance of the facts. Secondly how many upstoppable guys are there .. who's going to get that 50-50 call, how many players can just will their team to victory whenever needed ?? Maybe 5 players.

So again .. you don't want to pay Hayward ? Who do you pay, the next few years. How are you going to come up with this magical top 5 player ?

Finally to say that as the Jazz are constituted NOW, without Hayward are still easily a playoff team and wouldn't take a step back losing him ?? And say putting in a #3 draft pick rookie would mean even now we're just as good after moving Hayward on ?? wtf That team would be playing for 10th in the west unless Exum can actually play like that summer league game (which btw is the answer the Jazz brass are banking on for the alpha/#1 guy believe it or not. If Exum becomes that Hayward will be an unreal, efficient smart no#2)

 

[LoPo]

Mate you did not answer one part of my question. Firstly the market will absolutely say that Hayward is a $25 mil player whether you like it or not. To argue that is just displaying your ignorance of the facts. Secondly how many upstoppable guys are there .. who's going to get that 50-50 call, how many players can just will their team to victory whenever needed ?? Maybe 5 players.

So again .. you don't want to pay Hayward ? Who do you pay, the next few years. How are you going to come up with this magical top 5 player ?

Finally to say that as the Jazz are constituted NOW, without Hayward are still easily a playoff team and wouldn't take a step back losing him ?? And say putting in a #3 draft pick rookie would mean even now we're just as good after moving Hayward on ?? wtf That team would be playing for 10th in the west unless Exum can actually play like that summer league game (which btw is the answer the Jazz brass are banking on for the alpha/#1 guy believe it or not. If Exum becomes that Hayward will be an unreal, efficient smart no#2)

Thinking Exum is going to be our alpha, all star dominant scorer is pretty ignorant foresight. He could be very good, but not the wing star every contender needs. As for money, yes Hayward will get it somewhere but we shouldn't give it. To take a look at the top 25 contracts in the league. Over half of those contracts are regretted by the teams. In other words, those teams would not give those guys that money today.

How would I spend that money? I would go after Fournier, Barnes, Beal, Batum and Evan Turner who would all cost a fraction of $25+. We would still have the money to keep our young guys who have to get paid in the lifetime of that horrible Hayward max deal.

But you are avoiding my points too - Hayward probably walks next summer of we don't make the 2nd round or we don't give him the absolute biggest longest max. Screw those propositions...

Sent from my VS980 4G using JazzFanz mobile app

 

[idiot]

From Zach Lowe's piece yesterday on the Warriors' success:

"When one player rotates to help a teammate, a third Warrior covers that guy's back -- with the fourth and fifth Warriors moving in tandem to cut off any passing lanes. They quite literally move together, as one entity. On most teams, one guy rotates, everyone pauses to observe the new geometry of the floor, and then one guy realizes, holy crap, it's my job to move now! ...

That is not some random accident of team construction. The Warriors sought smart players who felt the game instinctually, and had a history of playing hard for their teammates. ...

The Warriors also enjoy a rare continuity that informs everything they do. In a league of shorter contracts and insane roster churn, Golden State's starting five now has four seasons together. Iguodala is finishing his third season with them, and he's so smart, that's the equivalent of a half-dozen shared seasons for a typical player.

That kind of connection is unusual now, and it matters. The players talk about it all the time. They know each other's tendencies blind -- how they move on defense, when they'll need a bit of extra help, what matchups trouble them, when they like to slice backdoor on offense. Collective experience breeds affection, and players go harder when they care about each other."

To those that think that Hayward is more of an impediment for Jazz in trying to make it onto this path than a help, I just don't know what to say.

https://espn.go.com/nba/story/_/id/16156434/2016-nba-finals-warriors-proven-more-just-shooters

 

[Dr. Jones]

^
This straw man keeps getting built.
The question isn't Hayward's value. It's asset protection.
The conversation isn't about getting rid of/replacing Hayward.

What it's about is the looming end of his contract. His value is higher now than it will be next year.
If we don't trade this asset, then I hope it's because we are confident in re-signing him for the value the FO deems appropriate. We need to confident we re-sign or trade him very soon. Please stop with the blanket "yALL DuMmIEs that Want tO git riD of Haygod are dum!"

I wish we had gotten something (anything) for Milsap.

 

[fishonjazz]

Both of their takes on the team as a whole have been piss poor lately. I'm betting the chicken littles of the board will be back-pedaling this year. Utah was looking pretty damn good before Exum got injured, and missing Gobert and Favors for big stretches didn't help. When this team is healthy, they are a hell of a lot better than either of those guys will admit,

This

 

[fishonjazz]

How's that idea working out for Kyrie Irving ?

Not sure what you are asking here but irvings career is going better than most players in the nba. All star most years. One of the best at his position. Going to finals.

I'm pretty sure he is happy with how his career is going. Probably wishes it were a little better and he could win a title.

 

[fishonjazz]

Firstly the market will absolutely say that Hayward is a $25 mil player whether you like it or not.

I wish!
Someone else figured the numbers and Haywards first year would be about 32 million. His last year (5th year) would be about 39 million.

 

[fishonjazz]

Finally to say that as the Jazz are constituted NOW, without Hayward are still easily a playoff team and wouldn't take a step back losing him ?? And say putting in a #3 draft pick rookie would mean even now we're just as good after moving Hayward on ?? wtf That team would be playing for 10th in the west unless Exum can actually play like that summer league game (which btw is the answer the Jazz brass are banking on for the alpha/#1 guy believe it or not. If Exum becomes that Hayward will be an unreal, efficient smart no#2)

I disagree. I think losing Hayward and adding #12, #3, and a free agent to go with exum, hood, mack, favors, Gobert, burks, lyles is a playoff team. I think #3, #12, and bazemore/batum or whatever is enough to replace Hayward. Plus I think Gobert, lyles, and hood at a minimum get better next year than they were this past year. (Probably a few others)
I think quin is a good developmental coach so he would get a lot out of #3 and #12 also. He has a good track record of using and developing young players well. (Hood, gobert, lyles, even exum)

 

[fishonjazz]

From Zach Lowe's piece yesterday on the Warriors' success:

"When one player rotates to help a teammate, a third Warrior covers that guy's back -- with the fourth and fifth Warriors moving in tandem to cut off any passing lanes. They quite literally move together, as one entity. On most teams, one guy rotates, everyone pauses to observe the new geometry of the floor, and then one guy realizes, holy crap, it's my job to move now! ...

That is not some random accident of team construction. The Warriors sought smart players who felt the game instinctually, and had a history of playing hard for their teammates. ...

The Warriors also enjoy a rare continuity that informs everything they do. In a league of shorter contracts and insane roster churn, Golden State's starting five now has four seasons together. Iguodala is finishing his third season with them, and he's so smart, that's the equivalent of a half-dozen shared seasons for a typical player.

That kind of connection is unusual now, and it matters. The players talk about it all the time. They know each other's tendencies blind -- how they move on defense, when they'll need a bit of extra help, what matchups trouble them, when they like to slice backdoor on offense. Collective experience breeds affection, and players go harder when they care about each other."

To those that think that Hayward is more of an impediment for Jazz in trying to make it onto this path than a help, I just don't know what to say.

https://espn.go.com/nba/story/_/id/16156434/2016-nba-finals-warriors-proven-more-just-shooters

That's cool and all but they have two AMAZING scorers.
Without that, they would just be another meh team.

 

[Stoked]

I really want to see what this Jazz team is capable of when healthy. Add to it this year instead of redoing it? Hard choices.

The Jazz either need to build on this team or go hard on redoing it. No half measures.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

I disagree. I think losing Hayward and adding #12, #3, and a free agent to go with exum, hood, mack, favors, Gobert, burks, lyles is a playoff team. I think #3, #12, and bazemore/batum or whatever is enough to replace Hayward. Plus I think Gobert, lyles, and hood at a minimum get better next year than they were this past year. (Probably a few others)
I think quin is a good developmental coach so he would get a lot out of #3 and #12 also. He has a good track record of using and developing young players well. (Hood, gobert, lyles, even exum)

I don't think we should trade Hayward but I do understand those that say he may not be worth the megamax he will get. The core problems I have are:

1- a rookie will not make up for his production... Rookies just don't help you win.

2- free agency is a really dicey proposition especially this year. The time for a move on from Hayward move was last years free agency when you had a shot to get a guy that could be Hayward insurance at a cheaper price. I'd have a hard time moving our best and most consistent player (remember the guy plays almost every game every year and logs a ton of minutes) for a rookie and free agent X.

If we move Hayward it will more likely be for pieces... So say 4 quarters for a dollar. In my eye if we did a deal like this I'm only moving Hayward if the team overpays so 5 or 6 quarters for the dollar.

If Boston wants him my starting price is #3 and the Bkn pick next year.

Another scenario I could see is a three team deal that goes like this:

Boston out: Bradley, #3, #16. In: Hayward
Sacramento out: Gay, #8 In: Burke Bradley #12
Utah out: Hayward, #12 In: #3, #8, #16 Gay

I realize Boston is paying a pretty steep price but the team that gets the best player has to pay the biggest tax.

3 I take Murray... 8 whatever player is left from the 3-8 tier. 16 Korkmaz if he's there and leave him in Europe... If not look for another guy or a trade back to acquire guys we can leave in Europe.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

I really want to see what this Jazz team is capable of when healthy. Add to it this year instead of redoing it? Hard choices.

The Jazz either need to build on this team or go hard on redoing it. No half measures.

Agree here. If we move Hayward you may as well go all in and move favors too... Or change the team name to the Utah Treadmills.

 

[fishonjazz]

1- a rookie will not make up for his production... Rookies just don't help you win.

I think Hayward leaving would create an ideal spot for minutes on a team with lots of money and a chance to be good for many years (due to the young talent on the jazz) and so we would have a better than normal shot at landing a good free agent. Plus the #3 AND the #12. That is what I think replaces hayward. Not just #3.

Also, I think lyles helped us win last year and exum and hood both helped us win the year before. Agree to Disagree.

If we move Hayward it will more likely be for pieces... So say 4 quarters for a dollar. In my eye if we did a deal like this I'm only moving Hayward if the team overpays so 5 or 6 quarters for the dollar.

If Boston wants him my starting price is #3 and the Bkn pick next year.

Another scenario I could see is a three team deal that goes like this:

Boston out: Bradley, #3, #16. In: Hayward
Sacramento out: Gay, #8 In: Burke Bradley #12
Utah out: Hayward, #12 In: #3, #8, #16 Gay

I realize Boston is paying a pretty steep price but the team that gets the best player has to pay the biggest tax.

3 I take Murray... 8 whatever player is left from the 3-8 tier. 16 Korkmaz if he's there and leave him in Europe... If not look for another guy or a trade back to acquire guys we can leave in Europe.

I love all of this and agree that generally the team that gets the top asset wins the trade.
The jazz should definitely try to get all they can.

Good post overall. I agree with a lot of it.