Multiverse - Higgs boson - String - Anthropic Principle

[The Midnight]

Science is the human activity where previously unanswered questions are probed through systemic methods based on logic and rationality. Experiments and observations allow the creation of theories. Those theories offer predictions, such as the constancy of gravity. So no, we don't know gravity is constant because it is so each time we measure it. We know it's constant because the best theories that explain the mechanics of its workings predict that constancy. If observations were to contradict the predictions, then we must evaluate the details of the explanatory theory.




Spend a couple of minutes evaluating what you said, and you'll find the mistake in your logic. We did not actually see the big bang happen. It happened BILLIONS of years before we even existed. Yet, we are able to extrapolate the likelihood of that event based on the current state of the universe. Similarly, one can hypothesize extra-cosmic conditions that can give rise to big bangs. Mathematics are incredibly powerful and sophisticated, and they are perfectly capable of examining such abstract concepts.

So the conditions that existed before the big bang are just as much the realm of rational inquiry as the conditions that lead to a tornado. In fact, ALL achievable answers lie within rational inquiry, since no other method has shown to do anything. After all, we had your religion, and others like it, for tens of thousands of years. And in a few hundred years of science, we managed to surpass the achievements of our forebears a million times over.

And why should it be any other way? Why should there be a cut off point where serious study is no longer sufficient, leaving unjustified random feelings as our tool of choice to solve unanswered riddles?

In short, can rational inquiry find a solution to every problem? Maybe, or maybe not. But if science can't find an answer, then nothing can. That is a simple fact, since the alternatives lack a convincing meaning outside of their faith-baseness.

This post is intended to add to the discussion in general, so don't feel obligated to respond point by point.

I don't think you can assume that to be true. Nobody knows what the conditions are like before all matter, space and time ever existed.

 

[Siro]

I don't think you can assume that to be true. Nobody knows what the conditions are like before all matter, space and time ever existed.

Sounds good. I expect you'll stop telling me it was your god then. Neither of us knows, so let's move on to a different question that we can hope to answer. Replacing every unknown/unknowable answer with each individual's favorite story serves absolutely no purpose.

 

[The Midnight]

Sounds good. I expect you'll stop telling me it was your god then. Neither of us knows, so let's move on to a different question that we can hope to answer. Replacing every unknown/unknowable answer with each individual's favorite story serves absolutely no purpose.

Well I guess that's the difference between you and me... I try to keep an open mind about people's experiences and don't simply dismiss/belittle them.

 

[Siro]

Well I guess that's the difference between you and me... I try to keep an open mind about people's experiences and don't simply dismiss/belittle them.

You don't. Otherwise, you'd be investigating the other thousand religions that use the same defense for their faith. But I don't care about the openness of your mind. Who has the time to investigate an endless ocean of superstition? However, I can't understand why the argument "well, it's my faith. Why can't you just consider forming your worldviews in accordance with my personal feelings?", is worth anyone's time. It just feels completely personal.

 

[The Midnight]

You don't. Otherwise, you'd be investigating the other thousand religions that use the same defense for their faith. But I don't care about the openness of your mind. Who has the time to investigate an endless ocean of superstition? However, I can't understand why the argument "well, it's my faith. Why can't you just consider forming your worldviews in accordance with my personal feelings?", is worth anyone's time. It just feels completely personal.

I don't investigate them, but I am open to them when they talk about it. To me it's part of being accepting of others, knowing that I don't know everything there is to know.

 

[Siro]

I don't investigate them, but I am open to them when they talk about it. To me it's part of being accepting of others, knowing that I don't know everything there is to know.

If being open to an idea is as easy as saying you are while you dismiss it, then you're right. And just like you're open to Hinduism or Sikhism, I am open to your faith. I don't think there's a single chance in hell it's in any way true (just as you don't doubt the falsehood of Greek paganism), but I'm perfectly fine with you talking about them! How wonderfully easy it is to be open.

 

[The Midnight]

If being open to an idea is as easy as saying you are while you dismiss it, then you're right. And just like you're open to Hinduism or Sikhism, I am open to your faith. I don't think there's a single chance in hell it's in any way true (just as you don't doubt the falsehood of Greek paganism), but I'm perfectly fine with you talking about them! How wonderfully easy it is to be open.

Not at all... I do believe in my heart that there is a spiritual being, the creator if you will, who have revealed himself to each of us in a different way. When I say I'm open to Hinduism, I'm not just merely "tolerating" what they are saying. On the contrary, I am open to the possibility that the heart of their story is intrinsically the same as my story, told in a different way.

 

[Siro]

Not at all... I do believe in my heart that there is a spiritual being, the creator if you will, who have revealed himself to each of us in a different way. When I say I'm open to Hinduism, I'm not just merely "tolerating" what they are saying. On the contrary, I am open to the possibility that the heart of their story is intrinsically the same as my story, told in a different way.

What is it you want from me? I presented my worldview that the universe is knowable through rational inquiry. I responded to your disagreements. I answered your challenges. I'm not interested in convincing you, only in explaining myself and my perspective. You keep talking about how open you are (despite your insulting opinion about wanting their faith to be really about yours), but you seem offended by the fact I see things differently. You don't bother giving me reasons to take your beliefs seriously. You even maintain that they're something you just feel to be true.

So I ask again, what do you expect of me? How can I be open to your religion? Should I change my opinion to something you like better? Should I just shut up so that you don't have to see anyone who doesn't acknowledge faith as a path to knowledge? Admit that all opinions are equally possible for the virtue of their existence? How much should I change to satisfy your open mind?

 

[The Midnight]

What is it you want from me? I presented my worldview that the universe is knowable through rational inquiry. I responded to your disagreements. I answered your challenges. I'm not interested in convincing you, only in explaining myself and my perspective. You keep talking about how open you are (despite your insulting opinion about wanting their faith to be really about yours), but you seem offended by the fact I see things differently. You don't bother giving me reasons to take your beliefs seriously. You even maintain that they're something you just feel to be true.

So I ask again, what do you expect of me? How can I be open to your religion? Should I change my opinion to something you like better? Should I just shut up so that you don't have to see anyone who doesn't acknowledge faith as a path to knowledge? Admit that all opinions are equally possible for the virtue of their existence? How much should I change to satisfy your open mind?

Uhh... I never said that.

If you recall, I said I don't know everything there is to know and that I'm open to the possibility that, at the heart of it, their stories and mine are intrinsically the same. When did I say "their faith is really all about mine"? If my opinion is somehow "insulting to you", then please accept my sincere apologies.

All I wanted to do is to have an open conversation where we can somehow discuss things without being insulting/angry with each other. To have an open mind about things and ideas, to be open to other people's beliefs or experiences.

 

[Siro]

Uhh... I never said that.

If you recall, I said I don't know everything there is to know and that I'm open to the possibility that, at the heart of it, their stories and mine are intrinsically the same. When did I say "their faith is really all about mine"? If my opinion is somehow "insulting to you", then please accept my sincere apologies.

All I wanted to do is to have an open conversation where we can somehow discuss things without being insulting/angry with each other. To have an open mind about things and ideas, to be open to other people's beliefs or experiences.

Yeah, I have been incredibly insulting and angry. You have been going around answering questions relevant to the thread, while I continued to harass you about being close minded and not accepting the relevance of my experience to pre-big bang events. Sorry for being such a dick. All you're trying to do is find our common story.

 

[The Midnight]

Yeah, I have been incredibly insulting and angry. You have been going around answering questions relevant to the thread, while I continued to harass you about being close minded and not accepting the relevance of my experience to pre-big bang events. Sorry for being such a dick. All you're trying to do is find our common story.

Hmm.. that wasn't directed at you, not sure how you got that from what I said.

Again, please accept my sincere apologies.

 

[Siro]

Hmm.. that wasn't directed at you, not sure how you got that from what I said.

Again, please accept my sincere apologies.

You know what puzzles me about believers? It is the fact that their gods must remain within the restraints of the believer's mind.

Even when I was a Muslim, I never once tried to distort this scientific theory or that, in order to shape it into my mold of god. The Quran proclaims that the pursuit of science is among the most noble of causes, because even if humanity was to spend eternity unraveling the works of Allah, they would only be able to extract a single grain of sand out of the mountain that is all knowledge.

But when I became an atheist, I was surprised to see that I was in the minority, even as a believer. People's gods can only create things whole. It cannot create life through biological evolution. Or maybe it set up the natural mechanisms that allow evolution, but they did not set the up any natural processes for abiogensis. And when people's god's are grand enough to have done that, surely they only used natural processes up to the point of the big bang.

How can anyone be contended in a god that only created most things through mechanistic know-how, but a few things through unknowable magic. Why can't god be truly grand? Why couldn't he have created the universe in an infinite multiverse. Why can't that multiverse be but a sliver of something even more magnificent. Why bother putting chains on your gods at all?