My argument for the death penalty...

[Hopper]

I betcha Kicky can out-swagger Biley, but it's gunna be a close call, I figure. I guess I'll reserve judgment until the contest is over.

I gotta fess up, Biley, I clean underestimated ya. Ya done took the lead, back there a spell, and now you're the clear front runner.

Good work!

 

[One Brow]

Unless I misunderstood, the prosecutors in the Illinois case called the police knowing it was perjury, or at least that is the charge.

 

[Hopper]

I am specifically discussing prosecutors who have not lied in court, but committed other breaches through negligence or disregard.

Your example involved lying in court, which I have acknowledged is a line that, when prosecutors cross it, does result in criminal charges. Another example of that would be Mike Nifong of the Duke case.

As I said before, none of these prosecutors lied in court (nor did Nifong as far as I know--his case never even went to trial).

In my example, 2 of the prosecutors allegedly knew the testimony of the witnesses they called was false. The third apparently failed to disclose potentially exculpatory evidence: "Judge [then prosecutor] Kilander is accused of not disclosing that a lawyer had told him in 1985 that a client had admitted being the sole killer of the girl."

 

[One Brow]

Well, I dunno, eh, Eric? If it's a problem that really concerns you, or anyone else, then become an "activist" in the area and help whip up a frenzy of indignation, eh? If even 1/2 of the resources and energy put into attempts to abolish the death penalty were expended directly on attempting to achieve more criminal prosecution of criminal DA's, judges, and cops, I'm sure more progress would have been made by now.

That's one we definitely agree on.

I'm sorry if I misinterpreted you talk of accidents. I tried to respond to it as if you meant that you can't stop the unfortunate from happening, with the idea that you can make sure when the unfortunate does happen, the effects are as small as reasonalby possible. As I thought, we really aren't too far apart here.

 

[One Brow]

In my example, 2 of the prosecutors allegedly knew the testimony of the witnesses they called was false. The third apparently failed to disclose potentially exculpatory evidence: "Judge [then prosecutor] Kilander is accused of not disclosing that a lawyer had told him in 1985 that a client had admitted being the sole killer of the girl."

Excellent. That's one.

I checked out Nifong in wikipedia recently. He did a day in jail for lying in court about his evidence.

 

[Hopper]

Excellent. That's one.

I checked out Nifong in wikipedia recently. He did a day in jail for lying in court about his evidence.

Yeah, but that was lying in another proceeding (the one investigating his actions, I think). I haven't really followed that sorry loser, Nifong, but there was talk (and I think it was the recommendation of the special prosecutor who was appointed) that he should be criminally charged for his role in the handling of the "rape" case. I think I also heard that NC passed special laws to punish the kinda things he did, but of course they could not be applied retroactively. I guess nuthin ever came of the push for criminal charges (why not, who knows?).

He did declare bankruptcy after the students filed a civil suit against his lyin ***, to stop the case, and avoid payment of damages, I hear. Shoulda been worse, but you can't really say he was not "accountable" for his actions, especially in light of his disbarment (or 5-years suspension, whatever it was), and the public disgrace of it all.

Edit: Apparently he claimed about $250,000 in assets, which presumably must be turned over to the bankruptcy trustee for distribution, pro rata, to his "creditors" (the students).

 

[billyshelby]

That's one we definitely agree on.

I'm sorry if I misinterpreted you talk of accidents. I tried to respond to it as if you meant that you can't stop the unfortunate from happening, with the idea that you can make sure when the unfortunate does happen, the effects are as small as reasonalby possible. As I thought, we really aren't too far apart here.

How could you not have understood the whole illogical fallacy of aint's argument about accidents? The whole absurdity of his position is that if we can reduce innocent people being killed to good faith accidents of any well intentioned system, it will justify those people being killed relatively. What it ignores is we don't have to live with any accidents whatsoever. What we lose to accomplish that is the death penalty, and whatever good it is perceived to have. But that good is never going to exceed killing even one innocent person when there is an alternative to prevent it entirely.

 

[Hopper]

Ya know, Biley, at first I thought ya probly didn't read so good. But then, I seen I wuz probly wrong bout that. I figures ya can reads just fine.

Ya just don't understand so good, that's all.

 

[prodigy]

Gardner executed
https://www.sltrib.com/news/ci_15324081

Ronnie Lee Gardner's quarter-century on death row ended at 12:20 today when a firing squad executed one of Utah's most notorious killers. His death signaled the end of a gut-wrenching saga for the families of the Utah men Gardner murdered or wounded and those who had hoped to spare the killer's life.

Barb Webb, daughter of Gardner victim Nick Kirk, sobbed when news of the execution came.

"I'm so relieved it's all over," she said, hugging her daughter, Mandi Hull. "I just hope my sister, who just passed away, and my father, and all of the other victims are waiting for his sorry ***. I hope they get to go down after him."

"I'm just glad it's over. I'm glad he's free," said Randy Gardner after his brother's death.

Other Gardner relatives whooped and cheered as they released 24 balloons decorated with messages.

"I love you, Ron!" some of them screamed, falling into each other's arms. Gardner's daughter, Brandie Gardner, put her hands to her face and sobbed.

For the nation, the 49-year-old Salt Laker's death by four bullets marked what could be the last execution of its kind in the country.

Utah is the only state still using a firing squad, and only four men on death row could still choose it -- the state switched to lethal injection in 2004.

Gardner's story went global when he told a judge how he preferred to become one of the 50-odd people executed in the United States each year: "I would like the firing squad, please."

Some hope the attention will highlight problems meting out capital punishment in Utah. Both death penalty opponents and believers decry the nearly 25 years Gardner spent between his conviction and execution for the April 1985 murder of Michael Burdell.

 

[Hopper]

Gardner executed
https://www.sltrib.com/news/ci_15324081

"Both death penalty opponents and believers decry the nearly 25 years Gardner spent between his conviction and execution for the April 1985 murder of Michael Burdell."

"I'm just glad it's over. I'm glad he's free," said Randy Gardner after his brother's death."

Kinda interestin, that. This part can't be true, though: "death penalty opponents... decry the nearly 25 years Gardner spent between his conviction and execution." Just ax Biley.

 

[Hopper]

"The last two executions in Utah have been of killers who halted their own death-row appeals. John Albert Taylor was executed in 1996 after eight years on death row, while Joseph Mitchell Parsons spent 11 years on death row before his 1999 execution. Unlike them, Gardner has fought to the bitter end."

I just don't git it. Why would anyone EVER cut their own appeal rights off, and choose to die rather than remain on death row as long as possible?

"Gardner's appellate attorneys have argued unsuccessfully over the years that if his jurors had known about the mitigating facts surrounding his troubled childhood -- poverty, drugs, violence and sex abuse -- they would have sentenced him to life in prison."

I guess they wuzzn't even tryin to claim he could be innocent, just that they didn't like his punishment. But, either way, it really doesn't make any difference, I spoze. Guilty or not, if he doesn't like his punishment, then why should he get it?

 

[billyshelby]

Ya know, Biley, at first I thought ya probly didn't read so good. But then, I seen I wuz probly wrong bout that. I figures ya can reads just fine.

Ya just don't understand so good, that's all.

I try, but it's so hard to breathe up there on high where you are. Like a magic fairy land of geniuses where it makes perfect sense that we have first graders across America stop learning their times tables to all watch a guy get killed with a chainsaw on television so they can learn not to kill. I can't wait until page 146 of this thread when you finally hint at a mystery wrapped in a puzzle that explains it perfectly.