NBA Playoffs

[LogGrad98]

Embiid, yet again, exhausted during a playoff game.

But but but, he's the best everything in the basketball thing.

 

[outerspacefan]

He would’ve been another big building block just as Bane would’ve been yet we somehow managed to **** that up.

Jazz could have had both.
I guess our scouting...

 

[The Thriller]

Jazz could have had both.
I guess our scouting...

Our scouting has just sucked. I don’t know how they got Gobert and Mitchell. Maybe it was luck more than skill? Cuz the last several drafts haven’t just had been, they’ve been god awful.

Honestly, this is my takeaway from this era.

The stockton to malone era was remembered by being ****ed by Jordan and Duck Bavetta.

The Dwill/Boozer era was remembered by having a good entertaining team that lacked interior defense. It was flawed and never a contender. The core was good but not a contender.

The hayward era is remembered by trying to build around a third beta option.

The Spida/Gobert era for me will be remembered by legitimately having a championship core but a FO that just ****ed up. It ****ed up by trying to go big with Conley. But that trade could’ve been salvaged had it not ****ed up for two straight drafts. Now? The team kinda sucks and has few assets. If the reg season began today, I’m not sure this team makes the playoffs tbh. They’re aging and aging fast. While the young teams are improving and improving fast.

 

[NUMBERICA]

He would’ve been another big building block just as Bane would’ve been yet we somehow managed to **** that up.

If you didn’t make the call at the time then you can just pass on the shade. I recall almost no one being high on Herb Jones. Maybe LoPo actually was but the report on him is that he was not good at basketball and had poor feel/BBIQ.

Whoops, 29 other teams missed on him and if the Pelicans thought he was this good they wouldn’t have drafted him that late either.

The Jazz could’ve done better in a lot of ways with how they approached last year’s draft, but JB is a good prospect.

 

[Elizah Huge]

If you didn’t make the call at the time then you can just pass on the shade. I recall almost no one being high on Herb Jones. Maybe LoPo actually was but the report on him is that he was not good at basketball and had poor feel/BBIQ.

Whoops, 29 other teams missed on him and if the Pelicans thought he was this good they wouldn’t have drafted him that late either.

The Jazz could’ve done better in a lot of ways with how they approached last year’s draft, but JB is a good prospect.

He also was arguing with HH that Doke was the right pick over Bane but not he wants to throw shade at the FO for not taking Bane… I’m not kidding.

 

[LoPo]

If you didn’t make the call at the time then you can just pass on the shade. I recall almost no one being high on Herb Jones. Maybe LoPo actually was but the report on him is that he was not good at basketball and had poor feel/BBIQ.

Whoops, 29 other teams missed on him and if the Pelicans thought he was this good they wouldn’t have drafted him that late either.

The Jazz could’ve done better in a lot of ways with how they approached last year’s draft, but JB is a good prospect.

I was big on Herb Jones for his defense, leadership, and the ability to play multiple positions. I was skeptical of his free throw shooting, ability to hit 3's and maybe suspect BBIQ.

He was the SEC player of the year on a team that won not only the SEC regular season but the SEC tourney as well. He had a poor tourney game from the line.

When we were sitting there at #30 and he was still there, I thought he was definitely worth the pick. I had the same feeling about him that I did Kawhi Leonard but on a much smaller scale. We just don't get freak wing athletes in Utah all that often. Sometimes we gotta take the chance ESPECIALLY since our perimeter defense has been our achilles heal.

Oh well. **** happens.

 

[NUMBERICA]

He also was arguing with HH that Doke was the right pick over Bane but not he wants to throw shade at the FO for not taking Bane… I’m not kidding.

Oh I know. Kinda mind-blowing.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

If you didn’t make the call at the time then you can just pass on the shade. I recall almost no one being high on Herb Jones. Maybe LoPo actually was but the report on him is that he was not good at basketball and had poor feel/BBIQ.

Whoops, 29 other teams missed on him and if the Pelicans thought he was this good they wouldn’t have drafted him that late either.

The Jazz could’ve done better in a lot of ways with how they approached last year’s draft, but JB is a good prospect.

There are guys like Herb that are really toolsy but don’t work out. Herb actually didn’t start on the summer league team. He’s one of those weird players you can’t really see all he does until it’s in the game.

JB will be good but his current roster fit was a little wonky because we have so many established small guards. The talent is there and if he had been on a non-playoff team his rookie year looks a lot different. He led rookies in scoring in the preseason and didn’t play summer league. Quin decided he was done hearing about that **** so he put him in a terrible role then buried him in the doghouse for his bestie Trent. Trent had some moments but he’s just such a low ceiling guy. It made no sense. If a Conley trade does happen I hope JB gets the backup minutes. I think he could be solid on both ends and if he starts hitting the step back three he could be a pretty valuable weapon. He gets a lot of separation and has shown some ability to finish and create for others.

Many of us, myself included, screamed when the team took Udoka over Bane and McDaniels. It was so obviously a dumb move but certain posters defended it vigorously… some of those same posters like to talk about how dumb it was now… which is pretty wild.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

I was big on Herb Jones for his defense, leadership, and the ability to play multiple positions. I was skeptical of his free throw shooting, ability to hit 3's and maybe suspect BBIQ.

He was the SEC player of the year on a team that won not only the SEC regular season but the SEC tourney as well. He had a poor tourney game from the line.

When we were sitting there at #30 and he was still there, I thought he was definitely worth the pick. I had the same feeling about him that I did Kawhi Leonard but on a much smaller scale. We just don't get freak wing athletes in Utah all that often. Sometimes we gotta take the chance ESPECIALLY since our perimeter defense has been our achilles heal.

Oh well. **** happens.

Will verify LoPo was on this one. I think the draft is a crap shoot. I wonder if they interviewed the guy. The thing beyond the toolsy basketball stuff that impresses me is the maturity and he seems like a worker… you take chances on a few of these types… Herb was by no means a guarantee but there are “Herbs” in many drafts and you may have to take a few to find the one.

I felt strongly that Bane was a guaranteed role player… the advanced metrics on his ball handling stuff was also pretty strong so there was a high floor with some upside. It was sitting right there and we locked into a limited center… weird ****.

McDaniels also was a great upside gamble… his brother had just showed he could be a useful role player… it would have been really reasonable to gamble on him instead… we took a limited center.

The truly ****** deal is that we only needed to hit on one or two of the moves with our picks or MLE/TPMLE signings and we have whiffed this far. Even the Butler pick, which I loved and still love, we traded back from 30… so we only got him on a 2 year deal instead of a 4 year deal… it’s just so rough.

 

[jom2003]

If you didn’t make the call at the time then you can just pass on the shade. I recall almost no one being high on Herb Jones. Maybe LoPo actually was but the report on him is that he was not good at basketball and had poor feel/BBIQ.

Whoops, 29 other teams missed on him and if the Pelicans thought he was this good they wouldn’t have drafted him that late either.

The Jazz could’ve done better in a lot of ways with how they approached last year’s draft, but JB is a good prospect.

That's why you draft players based on need not based on talent. Butler may be talented but what good does he do if we only gonna bring him off the bench as our sixth option in the backcourt. Herb Jones at least checks all the boxes in terms of our position needs and has a clear path to playing time.

Plus "talent" is a very subjective term meaning if your have scout that sucks(which we do), the guy you thought was talented and the BPA may not pan out well at all because he was not as talented as you thought he was. Like Conley. Like Doke.

 

[The Thriller]

If you didn’t make the call at the time then you can just pass on the shade. I recall almost no one being high on Herb Jones. Maybe LoPo actually was but the report on him is that he was not good at basketball and had poor feel/BBIQ.

Whoops, 29 other teams missed on him and if the Pelicans thought he was this good they wouldn’t have drafted him that late either.

The Jazz could’ve done better in a lot of ways with how they approached last year’s draft, but JB is a good prospect.

Some of us were high on Herb. Some of us also recognized last summer the weaknesses that are so apparent now. And some of us also recognized that drafting Butler would create a log jam unless at least one of our guards were traded. Butler might end up being a decent guard (better than Conley or Clarkson are right now? Hmmm) but drafting him while keeping our 3 small guards and neglecting our perimeter defense was just inexcusable.

I remember a lot of people dismissed Kawhi after byu dumped SDSU and they lost early in March madness. He struggled to defend Jimmer. There were questions about how his game would translate.

I’m not calling Herb Kawhi. However, we shouldn’t overreact to college. Guys have bad games. And often great athletes shine in the nba rather than college. The pace and style is just different. I think Herb is an interesting talent…

Underrated Post.

one thing we need to do better this year is generate turnovers and score in the break. Our lack of athleticism prevents this from happening. I’d like to get more athletic and get easier buckets. If we have to score everything in the half court then we’re screwed

I too would be interested in getting multiple picks this draft. I think we have multiple holes that won’t be plugged by free agency and I think we should do what we can to plug them with cheap athletic young players. We need to get another wing defender, giving Royce some help. We also need another guard who can create off the dribble. Especially if Conley leaves.

Isnt butler Jordan Clarkson? So would we be drafting him to replace Conley or Clarkson?

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

That's why you draft players based on need not based on talent. Butler may be talented but what good does he do if we only gonna bring him off the bench as our sixth option in the backcourt. Herb Jones at least checks all the boxes in terms of our position needs and has a clear path to playing time.

Plus "talent" is a very subjective term meaning if your have scout that sucks(which we do), the guy you thought was talented and the BPA may not pan out well at all because he was not as talented as you thought he was. Like Conley. Like Doke.

Uhhhh no... that is how you make the biggest draft mistakes ever (Chris Paul comes immediately to mind). If guys are in a similar talent tier you can put a premium on position or "need". In general you don't draft for current need as a "contender" because rookies won't play.

The only caveat I would add is that for a center who can't shoot or handle the ball they need to be so supremely talented to be in a tier with good wing prospects. Especially if you have a guy in place. Udoka was a terrible pick (Tony Bradley too) because the upside is so minimal. If they can protect the rim and shoot... or if they are like DeAndre Ayton and project to be good at many things and are physical/athletic freaks... then go for it.

JB was a tough fit for us this year but could have filled the Forrest role (10 minutes a night) and been just fine. Then the following year you can move on from JC or Conley and expand the role a bit. It was a great gamble and if he had been picked by a rebuilding team he'd likely have a role and put up solid numbers. He's going to be good. It was a well reasoned pick imo... but we should have taken him at #30 to give him a 4 year deal and extend the runway.

Drafting Herb with the idea that he was going to be the backup combo forward in Rudy Gay's role would have been a pretty wild assumption on draft night or the pre-season and everyone is thumping their chest like they are geniuses when really only one poster was on the Herb Jones bandwagon. There are guys like Herb that don't work every year... guys that tick the boxes. Bey, Woodard, Okpala, Keita Bates Diop, Okogie... like there are a lot of athletic guys with measurements that end up being so bad at shooting or just not good enough in other areas so they fail. Herb wasn't a can't miss type... JB was regarded as a lotto talent but had some medical issues that kept his stock down. It was a solid pick.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

JB could easily end up being as good a player as say... Jalen Brunson imo. He was a fine pick and will be quite good if healthy.

 

[The Thriller]

JB could easily end up being as good a player as say... Jalen Brunson imo. He was a fine pick and will be quite good if healthy.

I don’t think he has the athleticism that Brunson does. But even if he ends up being Brunson, you can’t play he and Conley/Mitchell/Clarkson together. Our backcourt is too small.

 

[LogGrad98]

That's why you draft players based on need not based on talent. Butler may be talented but what good does he do if we only gonna bring him off the bench as our sixth option in the backcourt. Herb Jones at least checks all the boxes in terms of our position needs and has a clear path to playing time.

Plus "talent" is a very subjective term meaning if your have scout that sucks(which we do), the guy you thought was talented and the BPA may not pan out well at all because he was not as talented as you thought he was. Like Conley. Like Doke.

Wait wait wait...are you saying Trey Lyles wasn't the best absolute talent on the board that year?

Just blew my mind!


I will say that drafting Trey Burke over Giannis was a prime example of the problem with drafting for perceived need rather than raw talent/athleticism.

To think we could have had Giannis and Gobert in the same ****ing draft.

 

[jom2003]

Uhhhh no... that is how you make the biggest draft mistakes ever (Chris Paul comes immediately to mind). If guys are in a similar talent tier you can put a premium on position or "need". In general you don't draft for current need as a "contender" because rookies won't play.

The only caveat I would add is that for a center who can't shoot or handle the ball they need to be so supremely talented to be in a tier with good wing prospects. Especially if you have a guy in place. Udoka was a terrible pick (Tony Bradley too) because the upside is so minimal. If they can protect the rim and shoot... or if they are like DeAndre Ayton and project to be good at many things and are physical/athletic freaks... then go for it.

JB was a tough fit for us this year but could have filled the Forrest role (10 minutes a night) and been just fine. Then the following year you can move on from JC or Conley and expand the role a bit. It was a great gamble and if he had been picked by a rebuilding team he'd likely have a role and put up solid numbers. He's going to be good. It was a well reasoned pick imo... but we should have taken him at #30 to give him a 4 year deal and extend the runway.

Drafting Herb with the idea that he was going to be the backup combo forward in Rudy Gay's role would have been a pretty wild assumption on draft night or the pre-season and everyone is thumping their chest like they are geniuses when really only one poster was on the Herb Jones bandwagon. There are guys like Herb that don't work every year... guys that tick the boxes. Bey, Woodard, Okpala, Keita Bates Diop, Okogie... like there are a lot of athletic guys with measurements that end up being so bad at shooting or just not good enough in other areas so they fail. Herb wasn't a can't miss type... JB was regarded as a lotto talent but had some medical issues that kept his stock down. It was a solid pick.

It's easy for you to say these things now after the fact but like i said, hindsight is 50/50 and judging a player's talent level during a nba draft is completely subjective. How do you define a player being the most talented and the best available?

Some would say the player who was the most nba ready(Jahlil Okafor, Derrick Williams, Jabari Parker, Trey Burke, etc) and some would say the player who has the best measurement and raw athleticism(Frank Ntilikina, DedEx, MKG, Thon Maker, etc).

See? you can find busts in both of these categories. Some would still argue that we really should've drafted Giannis in 2013 but the reality is that none of us has a time machine to know that what we were looking at was the future MVP of this league.

But what we really don't need a time machine for is the basic needs of this team. i mean it doesn't take rocket science to know that this Jazz team needs some size, athleticism and defense across 1-4, which makes Herb Jones the most fitting candidate.

Had we selected Herb Jones, at least we would've gotten a chance to see what we truly have because he would've gotten ample opportunities to play. We don't know what we have with Butler. And unless we go into a full teardown next season, Butler may be gone before we could ever find out

 

[jom2003]

I don’t think he has the athleticism that Brunson does. But even if he ends up being Brunson, you can’t play he and Conley/Mitchell/Clarkson together. Our backcourt is too small.

Butler is a good rebuild piece. Not a championship piece. Meaning if we just go blow up the team tomorrow Butler may be our new starting PG in town. But if we wanna win with this current core, you just can't justify Butler being the right pick

But IMO a full teardown may be the right thing to do cuz we ain't winning with this current core regardless. so the jury still out on butler

 

[Avery]

I have to say, Minny is going to be even better next year.

West is gonna be Uber-competitive.

 

[jom2003]

I have to say, Minny is going to be even better next year.

Minny, Pels and Grizzlies all gonna be better

 

[Gameface]

Some of us were high on Herb.

Yeah, I buy that.