Yea I've noticed, but my proposed system is not being used yet.
New draft lottery system
- Thread starter oldtimer
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Yea I've noticed, but my proposed system is not being used yet.
Darkwing Duck
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I was working on the thought that Minnesota was in the 30 win range the last few years.
Jazz4ever
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Any draft system that could give a contending team a rookie contract superstar is out of the question. The wheel system could work, but would need some tweaks to prevent this.
JimLes
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The problem with the current draft system is that you can't trust anyone in the NBA as far as you can throw them. I understand the reasoning that the draft is needed because otherwise bad teams would have no way out of their ****ty fate and 5 teams would get all the players, but how the hell can you tell which teams are actually bad, which teams are bad by design, and which teams aren't actually bad but are tanking?
If the league actually punished losing(like they do with relegation over in Europe), I think you would see teams act very differently. Take the Bucks, for example. I don't think anyone here would argue that they are anything but a horrible team. They're not losing on purpose, and if they didn't get a high lottery pick this year, they'd be just as bad next year. Hell, they'll probably be terrible next year with a lottery pick. Sounds like a perfect example of why the draft is needed. They actually have bad players, and they need some good ones.
Except that Bucks' crapiness is actually their own doing. They were 38-44 last year, 31-35 the year before, and have generally been around 4 games +/- of .500 the last 6-7 years. If the NBA actually punished losing, would they have made all the moves they've made in the past few years? Do they let Ellis go and sign Mayo? Do they trade Jennings for Knight? Do they still trade Reddick for some magic beans and let Dunleavy walk? The Bucks suck, but man, it was their own doing. It's not like they suck because their star player suffered a career-ending injury or their hot draft prospect snorted coke and died on draft night. They suck because they made moves that were just about guaranteed to make them suck.
People assume that without the lottery, bad teams would just flounder and be bad forever or until they are contracted. Sure, if you assume they would act the same way they do now. I think they'd wise up real quick, though.
LOL.. then GSW would have gotten the #1 pick the year they drafted Harrison Barnes.
Why? Cos they would have sat Curry, Bogut and Lee the whole season, only to have them "healthy" in the end of year tournament and blitzed the field.
green
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Bull ****.
First, realize that LA, Chicago, Boston and New York will always have an advantage. Miami's market is #16. Second, who cares if it dooms the rest of the league to second place? Isn't that the whole point? To give teams other than the four large markets a chance? By definition, Miami is a small market team. Isn't Miami succeeding what we want?
If Miami and OKC and SA can succeed, then Utah can.
Second, it wouldn't doom the league to 2nd place for 8 years. With the cap, Miami would have to get rid of Wade and possibly Bosh. Miami is a smaller market, they can't afford to do what NY, LA, and Brooklyn has done.
Finally, I don't care what Miami does, as long as Utah has a shot. Under the current lottery system, and under an "averaged" system (3 or 5 years), Utah doesn't have a shot. Under a slotted draft or wheel system, Utah has a shot.
Forget about large market teams, they will ALWAYS have an advantage. Show me a system where Utah could have a team of
Stockton, Nash, Andre Miller
Jon Barry
Grant Hill, Glenn Rice
Charles Oakley, Horrace Grant
Hakeem
And I'll listen. Until then, the wheeled draft is BY FAR the best option.
Have confidence in yourself and quit being afraid of other's success.
green
Well-Known Member
STUPID argument. You want SMALL MARKET TEAMS LIKE MIAMI (or UTAH) TO HAVE A CHANCE AT ADDING A SUPERSTAR.
Forget about Miami or LA. What is best for Utah? The wheel draft gives UTAH a chance at having a team with FIVE Hall of Famers AT ONCE. No other system gives small market teams that chance.
You seem passionate but I guess I'm missing how a wheel system does not favor large teams or team with a desirable destination like miami. Once wiggins or parker was draftwd by maimi they could re-sign wade and bosh. You can go over the cap to sign your own players.
Also a wheel system really sucks in down draft years like last year. After 30 years you finally get the first pick and there is nobody worth taking.
The jazz could very easily end up in the lottery for the next few years given their refusal to tank in a strong draft and the strength of thw western conference. In a couple years I think you will see the merits of average approach.
green
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A wheel system doesn't favor large market teams at all. It is completely fair and upfront. It favors SMART teams. Take a look at Brooklyn. They traded away Damion Lilliard, Derrick Favors, Enes Kanter and a piece that was used to get Trey Burke. The wheel system would still screw that team over. Same as New York.
What the wheel system does do, is it allows SMART teams to continue to reload, and small market teams to have access to higher rated players.
Take a look at the Jazz. Once they had Stockton and Malone, they were done. No more high draft picks, no more big FA acquisitions. The Jazz were screwed with no way to get better. They were a WCF team with no real hope to improve. Until they were lucky enough to steal Hornacek from Philly because Philly was too dumb to have him play SG.
Then, look at the Jazz again. They were able to draft Deron and sign Boozer, but then, once again, they were stuck. No way to get better. No way to get that guy to put them over the hump.
A wheel system allows SMART teams to get better. Imagine if Utah could have had Stockton and Malone and had a top 5 pick in the mid-90's. Wow. Think of it this way: A wheel system would allow Utah to do what SA did when they tanked for Duncan, without ever having to tank.
You mentioned that Miami could go over the cap to resign Wade and Bosh and you are correct. BUT, Miami is a small market team, and they do not have the TV deals that LA, CHI, NY, BOS do. They CAN'T go over the cap to keep those two. The tax penalties are too harsh for them. So, once every 29 years, there might be a chance that a team with a Jordan or LeBron would get the #1 pick. Big deal. What if you have LeBron on your team? Or what if you have Stockton or Malone and can add a #1 pick? WOW. Utah would NEVER get that shot.
A perfect example of this is OKC. They are the new Stockton and Malone. They are SCREWED. Especially when Wiggins/Embiid/Parker ends up in LA. Then next year Love ends up in LA. LA can always add talent. OKC can't. They have peaked and they now have NO way to get better. They can't attract a big time FA or afford them. IF they had a wheeled draft, and this fall they had the #5 pick, then there would be a chance they could compete with LA.
Yup, it sucks in a down year, and it would suck to get the #1 pick in that year (look at us and Kanter) but it would happen to everyone and the bad luck part is still there now.
Another FANTASTIC thing about the wheel, is that you know what you are trading for. We traded Deron for Favors (player), Harris (player) and two first round picks. One wasn't protected, ended up being #5 and won the #3 spot in the lottery. The other is protected and we will get this year. It will either be GS's first round pick, or if that picks fall under its protection, it will be two second round picks.
Now, Utah essentially traded Deron for Favors and the two picks. Those two picks could have been anywhere from the #1 pick to two second round picks. That is quite a risk the Jazz took in taking those picks. What happens if Utah traded Deron, NJ made the playoffs and GS was a top 6 pick this year? Then we traded Deron for Favors and crap. Luckily, we have gotten better than that, BUT how much better would it be for a small market team if they knew ahead of time what those picks were?
A lot better. A lot less risk for that small market team. Instead of maybe getting Harrison Barnes a couple years ago, we would know that we are getting the #8 pick. Instead of trading Deron for Favors and a first round pick and maybe two second round picks, we could have traded Deron for a #3 pick and a #8 pick. MUCH BETTER.
The wheel system is 100% fair for ALL teams with incoming players, and would completely help out SMART teams.
Until someone can show me a system that would allow Utah with Stockton and Malone to add Grant Hill, or OKC to add Parker to Durrant and Westbrook, the system isn't as good.
The reason why is because LA, BOS, NY, CHI, Brooklyn can always add superstars if they are smart. It's impossible for a small market team to do so without a wheel system.
If you can get past the initial, unlikely "what-if's" (and Miami getting better isn't a horrible "what-if". They are small market team. We WANT them to succeed.), then a wheel system just makes too much sense. The problem is, people don't want a fair chance to compete, they just want a way to hurt those more successful or in better situations than they are in.
Big markets always have unfair advantages when it comes to access to talent. A wheel system gives small market teams a way to have access to top talent as well.
green
Well-Known Member
We have a pretty dang close to a hard cap system. Miami won't add payroll, OKC traded Harden, LA gutted their roster, etc. It's close enough to make it work.
Green liked your post and I repped you for it. That being said I could never support a systemthat potentially rewards teams that are stacked with talent while ignoring teams that need help. I like and want competive balance. Iwould hate it if okc got parker in this draft becauae their number was up.
Well let's say Miami (or NY, or Brooklyn, or Chicago) gets the 30th pick this Summer, but gets the 1st pick next year...
What's to stop Wiggins to stay 1 more year in college so that he can be picked by the team of his choosing?
fishonjazz
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fishonjazz
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Lots of good ideas in this thread.
Just want to say that im fine with anything (including the way it currently is) as long as its not the wheel system that green likes.
There is a reason that when the wheel system was proposed, the big market teams were in favor of it and the small market teams didn't want it.
Just want to say that im fine with anything (including the way it currently is) as long as its not the wheel system that green likes.
There is a reason that when the wheel system was proposed, the big market teams were in favor of it and the small market teams didn't want it.
green
Well-Known Member
The only system that will stop tanking is the wheel system.
The average over years will cause longer term suckiness than the wheel system.
The current system promotes tanking.
No lottery, just go where you land promotes tanking.
If you want to get rid of tanking, the wheel system is the ONLY WAY.
The average over years will cause longer term suckiness than the wheel system.
The current system promotes tanking.
No lottery, just go where you land promotes tanking.
If you want to get rid of tanking, the wheel system is the ONLY WAY.
fishonjazz
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The wheel system would get rid of tanking, but i would rather have the tanking.
Someone else proposed that the teams that miss the playoffs all get an equal chance at each pick (just a random drawing like pulling names out of a hat with each team having one peice of paper with thier name on it) and that would also eliminate tanking.
Like someone else said, the biggest (though not the only) problem with the wheel system is that there is the potential for the best team in the league, that already has the best players, to get the number 1 pick.
Nothing would piss me off more than a scenario where a Lakers team with Kobe and shaq get the #1 pick and that pick turns into another superstar on a cheap rookie contract. Would not happen often im sure and maybe would never happen, but the potential is there
I dont think the tanking thing is that big of a deal unless its a super hyped up draft like this year or a team has a protected pick..... so the nba could just keep everything how it is but take away the ability to "protect picks" and then i think you would only see bad tanking in loaded drafts that only come around every ten years
That is an excellent argument against the wheel. If your parker and you have a choice of going to the bucks this year or stay in school one more year and enter the draft one year later when the lakers have the number one pick what would you choose? The wheel system would mess with teams like the bucks or the jazz.
I don't think that's true. If all bottom 10 teams get 10% chance at the #1-#3 picks, there would be no need for the likes of the Bucks/Orlando/76ers purposely losing 50-60 games.