No more circumcision in SF?

[LogGrad98]

You mean when he asked me to say where you specifically stated it I tried, even after specifically stating I wasn't responding uniquely to you (which you omit)? THE SCANDAL! THE HORROR!

This is a worthless sideshow. Stop wasting my time.

Whoa you sure put me in my place. I bow before your superior grasp of semantics and I apologize for interrupting your intellectual pontificating.

By the way your choice to respond is just that, your choice. You are therefore wasting your own time.

 

[LogGrad98]

Thought this was worth posting in this thread since it went down this road:

Reasons why women choose abortion (note: multiple answers were possible):

74% felt "having a baby would dramatically change my life" (which includes interrupting education, interfering with job and career, and/or concern over other children or dependents)
73% felt they "can't afford a baby now" (due to various reasons such as being unmarried, being a student, inability to afford childcare or basic needs of life, etc.)
48% "don't want to be a single mother or [were] having relationship problem"
38% "have completed [their] childbearing"
32% were "not ready for a(nother) child"
25% "don't want people to know I had sex or got pregnant"
22% "don't feel mature enough to raise a(nother) child"
14% felt their "husband or partner wants me to have an abortion"
13% said there were "possible problems affecting the health of the fetus"
12% said there were "physical problems with my health"
6% felt their "parents want me to have an abortion"
1% said they were "a victim of rape"
<0.5% "became pregnant as a result of incest"

https://womensissues.about.com/od/reproductiverights/a/AbortionReasons_2.htm

I don't know about everyone else but the #1 reason listed there fits in what I view as a "recreational abortion". That is it will interrupt their life so the choice is abortion. If you are not in a position in your life to support a child, then don't engage in the act that creates children, or take steps that will mitigate that risk. Another one I find interesting is "38% "have completed [their] childbearing". If you are done having children take steps to make sure you won't have any more children. We finished our family and I had a vasectomy. No more kids.

Of course this doesn't get into the issues of why they were pregnant to begin with, other than rape being at the very bottom. It also does not give a ton of detail on the particular circumstances of each case, such as how many resulted from a failure of birth control. But it is still interesting to see the basic reasons.

 

[Scat]

Reasons why women choose abortion (note: multiple answers were possible):

74% felt "having a baby would dramatically change my life" (which includes interrupting education, interfering with job and career, and/or concern over other children or dependents)
73% felt they "can't afford a baby now" (due to various reasons such as being unmarried, being a student, inability to afford childcare or basic needs of life, etc.)
48% "don't want to be a single mother or [were] having relationship problem"
38% "have completed [their] childbearing"
32% were "not ready for a(nother) child"
25% "don't want people to know I had sex or got pregnant"
22% "don't feel mature enough to raise a(nother) child"
14% felt their "husband or partner wants me to have an abortion"
13% said there were "possible problems affecting the health of the fetus"
12% said there were "physical problems with my health"
6% felt their "parents want me to have an abortion"
1% said they were "a victim of rape"
<0.5% "became pregnant as a result of incest"

Wow! I wish someone would have posted this earlier in the thread.

 

[sirkickyass]

I don't know about everyone else but the #1 reason listed there fits in what I view as a "recreational abortion".

Do you also believe that #2 is "recreational abortion" (a term that should be retired immediately FYI, since no one gets an abortion for recreation), because frankly it's obvious that it's a nearly total overlap with #1.

 

[LogGrad98]

Actually looking at the list the top 3 or 4 fit that description pretty much imo. And since I view them as unnecessary abortions, to me "recreational abortion" fits. They used sex purely for recreation without thought to the consequences so they get an abortion. (of course, as I said when I posted the list, it does not tell whether or how many were failed birth control of some other kind, that might make a difference as has been brought up before) If it makes people uncomfortable to use that term maybe it is a good term to use, at least actually make people think about the consequences.

[edit]

I guess these are kind of under that umbrella:

74% felt "having a baby would dramatically change my life" (which includes interrupting education, interfering with job and career, and/or concern over other children or dependents)
73% felt they "can't afford a baby now" (due to various reasons such as being unmarried, being a student, inability to afford childcare or basic needs of life, etc.)
48% "don't want to be a single mother or [were] having relationship problem"
38% "have completed [their] childbearing"
32% were "not ready for a(nother) child"
25% "don't want people to know I had sex or got pregnant"
22% "don't feel mature enough to raise a(nother) child"

I mean you can go down the list and to all of these you can say "then don't have sex" or "then use birth control" or "then give the baby up for adoption". As pro-choice advocates say, there is a clear choice in this. How funny that they balk so strongly at the "then don't have sex" or "then use birth control" choices.

Just to touch on the abstinence discussion. I think to say that abstinence is unrealistic is just sad. It is true, I am not denying that, but it is wholly throwing personal accountability out the window. It is an excuse like any other. "How can I be expected not to have sex?" Really? What are we, dogs in heat? This should be viewed as a viable choice, but really it is a vicious cycle. Society tells me it is unrealistic so I am not really accountable to make that choice. It is made for me already. It isn't even viewed as a choice anymore. Abstinence is viewed as a dirty word. I mean, everyone has sex, how can I not? It is no big deal, since it is unrealistic to say no since that is what I am told.

 

[One Brow]

That's a horrible analogy. A child doesn't just wander into a womb. The mother had SOMETHING to do with it, don't you think? (Again, let's say like LoganGrad did that cases such as rape are a different situation.)

Yes, she left the door unlocked, whether accidentally or deliberately. If you leave a door unlocked, youare making it more accessible to intruders.

If you want to make it more than that, you need to say the woman has more knowledge of some offspring that does not yet exist than of vargrants that actually exist, but she does not know personally.

 

[One Brow]

How in the hell did this thread turn into an abortion debate?

The Thriller decided it would be good to throw it in.

 

[One Brow]

What's your view--does a fetus deserve any protections?

I think every fetus has a right to live outside of its mother's womb. So, I would support legislation calling for live removals of viable fetuses. That right does not extend to being able to continue to use the womb against the mother's will. Thats a right no other type of person has in the United States.

 

[One Brow]

Rape exceptions are intellectually bankrupt and are only repeated pro forma by pro-lifers because they know it's politically unacceptable to take their position to its logical conclusion.

I disagree. Rape exceptions are the natural result of the part of the real agenda: control over the sexual behavior of women. Women can't control being raped, therefore they shouldn't be forced to live with the result. It's the most intellectually honest part of the anti-abortion movement.

The intellectual bankruptcy is the pretense that this is founded on some notion of personhood for the fetus. 1) There is no such personhood granted in the books of most religious traditons, personhood begins at first breath. 2) No other type of person has a right to use the body of second party against their will.

 

[One Brow]

I think he was talking about the evolutionary/biological intended consequence, not necessarily the couple's intended consequence.

Biology and evolution have no intentions, therefore no intended consequences.

 

[One Brow]

No, I'm quite comfortable allowing the woman to be the judge of that herself.

So, you're in favor of allowing rape victims to judge their own psychological harm from having the child, but not willing to allow women who are not the victims of rape to judge their own psychological harm from having a child?

 

[One Brow]

If you are not in a position in your life to support a child, then don't engage in the act that creates children, or take steps that will mitigate that risk.

It always comes down to this.