Obama Government Shutdown?

[Stoked]

Here's my solution: 10% national sales tax and get rid of the individual mandate and all these requirements that are allegedly hurting business or forcing them to push workers from full time to part time. Give everyone with health insurance a tax credit of say 50% of gross income up to $173k (just underneath congress' pay) or whatever the average spending is in each bracket to offset the new tax. Everyone worried that they'll get unemployed and get hit with the full tax can go onto Obamacare for a couple of months for the $50 minimum/month family coverage. It would be a smart thing to do anyway.

We all know how paranoid conservatives would respond to that.

Increasing the tax to 10% or a new 10% tax? The 50% reduction in income tax for those with insurance would be a popular notion with a lot of conservatives and libertarians.

Companies are down sizing, going from full time to part time and/or removing benefits for dependents. I wonder what exactly is driving them to do so. Once the exact issue is known one can come up with alternatives.

 

[Stoked]

But then again, why is this thread being brought back up to the first page? Hadn't we decided as a group that the shutdown is nothing more pissing contest?

Pretty much.

 

[babe]

Probably because you see the media caricature of her and campaigning. She's a pretty reasonable person when you get her into a calm setting with an open discussion. I personally like the vast majority of our leaders when they're on a program like Charlie Rose. Most are very insightful when given the chance to discuss an issue with someone capable of doing so on an intellectual level.

I've been thinking about this too. Our politicians are not stupid. . . . none of them. They can all say stuff out of one side of their mouth, while rubbing their stomachs and pointing fingers in public, and then go into little closets and take bribes from lobbyists and promise things out of the other side of their mouths.

Most of them also have a little pinky up in the air testing the way the wind is blowing, as well as an awareness of the wonders of a beautiful new world managed properly according to the orders of an intellectual, social and financial elite. For a quick gist of what that amounts to, click on the UN website, or the CFR website. It's no "secret".

what it really comes down to is that we are being managed, not listened to. For our own good, as some might say.

While there is some discussion going in within the elite circles, as well as efforts to promote different ideas publicly, our power is limited to a feather or two on the scales being stacked with gold by the heavyweights.

Looking at what is being said in those levels of elitism, I consider it possible that some are hoping, and deliberately working to make, the ACA fail. The more influential folks may want to use the failed ACA to argue for a simple single-payer system, some of the lesser influential elites want to promote their insurance businesses and make their medical facilities actually serve the patients. . . .

Clearly, we only hurt ourselves by going to the hard line ideological positions without using the good sense God gave us to discuss the problems with understanding and persuasion capable of reaching and influencing our leaders.

People like Franklin and Rev are worth the time it takes to understand what they say, and if I want to be able to influence our leaders, I should do that work and then come up with something that isn't just rhetorical slash and burn idiocy.

 

[franklin]

babe, I believe in representative democracy not pure democracy like you are pushing. There's good reason to listen to the best intellects on a subject by subject basis. If you want to be listened to then be the best intellect of your time.

As far as "managed" goes, I have more hope for humanity because of folks like you. That **** ain't the American way.

FWIW, I also have hope for humanity because of the casual idiots that our media caters too. We're too stupid and hardheaded to be managed, and that stupidity has a nice neutralizing effect on voting at large.

 

[♪alt13]

You're equating individual rates with overall healthcare costs? Great demagoguery, but I'm not interested. Everyone already knows it will raise rates for some and lower them for others. I'm surprised you're acting so shocked about that, but not surprised you're only including the side that will see rate increases trying to trick people into thinking that means overall costs will go up. SMD

Read it again! Fewer people will save than will see their rates increase. Furthermore the increases are expected to be larger than the savings. Overall rates increase. Unless you want to cite a link that shows that on average people will save, stfu.

 

[babe]

babe, I believe in representative democracy not pure democracy like you are pushing. There's good reason to listen to the best intellects on a subject by subject basis. If you want to be listened to then be the best intellect of your time.

As far as "managed" goes, I have more hope for humanity because of folks like you. That **** ain't the American way.

FWIW, I also have hope for humanity because of the casual idiots that our media caters too. We're too stupid and hardheaded to be managed, and that stupidity has a nice neutralizing effect on voting at large.

I can see why my remarks above could be characterized as "pushing for a pure democracy", but that's not my whole idea. Let me just ramble a bit to get a whole idea laid out. . .

my wife sounds like she considers our government evil, and she's definitely a Chicago-school economist and can't be moved. In her analysis, government is evil when it gets in her way, in any way, and interferes with what she considers "pure liberty". I have to come here to find people who will discuss it with me, because she already knows what she "stands for".

So I try to tell her she is "against Jesus", and try to tell her that when Jesus comes, it's going to be "His Government". I also try to tell her she's not really a "Christian". . . . an "American", maybe, but not a Christian.

Christians laid out a precept during Roman times of not being rebels against a wicked government, but being subject to that government, even when that government was digging them out of their catacombs and feeding them to the lions. . . . because they believed Jesus would come soon enough. They believed this world was evil and looked for justice in another.

Americans have never been that kind of "Christian" nation. We have stood up to declare that "We, the People" own the government, and that the government is vested only with certain specifically defined, limited powers, granted by the U.S. Constitution which is the agreement whereby the various State governments have consented to having a unified Federal government. Americans vote to compose their various State governments, which have their own Constitutions which define limited State powers, under which county and municipal governments function with defined powers.

uhhhhmmmm. . . . sorry I can't write the whole book just now, but I think you can all see my drift here.

In my view, "We the People" own a puppy. We have to decide if we want that puppy to obey us, or if we just don't care if it eats us alive. We have to be the authority, the "alpha dog", and make sure it stays in the yard or on the leash as we deem best.

While I agree with you on the need for intelligent management of our affairs, I analyze it a bit and arrive at a perception that some people have in effect turned our puppy into something that serves their own interests, not mine, or ours. That is what we need to fix.

In a "Representative Republic", which is what I believe is the correct effect of our original Constitution, we do indeed have the responsibility to elect the best among us to make sure our Government does the best things for us. Intelligence. . . . better than the average. . . . is essential to that kind of "Representative".

The problem I see as being the central one, is that neither We, The People, nor our representatives have the best concept of what our government should be doing. I don't think we need a rebellion or guns to fix that. . . . primarily we need to fix our educational system and turn it away from the feudal English or European ideals of "socialism". Americans need to return to the ideals behind their own original fight for human rights. Not to go back to an imperfect past, but to go forward once again in a way that does sustain the essential elements of human liberty.

I might not believe our Constitution is "Divinely Inspired", I just think people can do a better job of training government to serve their real needs if they insist on owning their government, and refuse to let anyone, no matter how smart they are, take that power away from us.

I've got dogs that are smarter than I am, but I train them. No "smart dog" is going to train me.

Well, Jesus maybe, but nobody who's dancing to David Rockefeller's music.

 

[franklin]

Read it again! Fewer people will save than will see their rates increase. Furthermore the increases are expected to be larger than the savings. Overall rates increase. Unless you want to cite a link that shows that on average people will save, stfu.

Once again, I don't give a rats *** about demagoging Obamacare. If you want to explain the details of exactly why it will raise or lower costs then I suppose I'll be your audience. But I really don't care.


@babe - I know you're not for pure democracy, of course. I just wanted to put what you wrote in a different context.

 

[LogGrad98]

https://news.yahoo.com/government-shutdown-backfires-gop-says-democrats-now-guilty-133154607.html

So Reid is trying his hand at the "extortion" game. The Republicans can only save themselves if they get out of this mess, and he's the only Democrat in Congress who has the power to let that happen. So far, he's letting them dangle.
He now wants the Republicans to roll back parts of the sequester budget cuts agreed to during the 2011 debt-ceiling crisis. The sequester, however, happens to be the only tangible success of Congress's tea party era. Asking the Republicans to go back on the sequester cuts would be like asking the Democrats to go back on, say ... Obamacare.
Sound familiar?

Yeah, it's always just the republicans. The democrats are guiltless in every way shape and form. I am sure glad we settled that we were not allowed to talk about both sides playing the same game, since obviously it was only the teabaggers doing it. It is the same song and dance as it has been, and yes, our legislature needs major reform.

 

[Harambe]

https://news.yahoo.com/government-shutdown-backfires-gop-says-democrats-now-guilty-133154607.html



Yeah, it's always just the republicans. The democrats are guiltless in every way shape and form. I am sure glad we settled that we were not allowed to talk about both sides playing the same game, since obviously it was only the teabaggers doing it. It is the same song and dance as it has been, and yes, our legislature needs major reform.

A little upsetting, to say the least. This could be over with and done today, maybe even last Friday, but someone's trying to get more crap added to the bill.

There's a part of me that wants to scream "They started it" and "This is what you've been giving the Dem's", but the realistic side understands this is not going to help.

 

[Jazz Spazz]

What do you all think of this article from Thomas Sowell?

Thomas Sowell (/soʊl/; born June 30, 1930) is an American economist, social theorist, political philosopher, and author. He is currently the Rose and Milton Friedman Senior Fellow on Public Policy at the Hoover Institution, Stanford University. According to Larry D. Nachman in Commentary magazine, he is considered a leading representative of the Chicago school of economics.[1]

Sowell was born in North Carolina, but grew up in Harlem, New York. He dropped out of high school, and served in the United States Marine Corps during the Korean War. He received a bachelor's degree from Harvard University in 1958 and a master's degree from Columbia University in 1959. In 1968, he earned his Doctorate in Economics from the University of Chicago.

(taken from Wikipedia)

https://jewishworldreview.com/cols/sowell100413.php3#.UlwvoBAkJ8E

Even when it comes to something as basic, and apparently as simple and straightforward, as the question of who shut down the federal government, there are diametrically opposite answers, depending on whether you talk to Democrats or to Republicans.

There is really nothing complicated about the facts. The Republican-controlled House of Representatives voted all the money required to keep all government activities going — except for ObamaCare.

This is not a matter of opinion. You can check the Congressional Record.

(just a taste, read the rest from the link)

 

[franklin]

https://news.yahoo.com/government-shutdown-backfires-gop-says-democrats-now-guilty-133154607.html

Yeah, it's always just the republicans. The democrats are guiltless in every way shape and form. I am sure glad we settled that we were not allowed to talk about both sides playing the same game, since obviously it was only the teabaggers doing it. It is the same song and dance as it has been, and yes, our legislature needs major reform.

You're only telling one half of the story. The dems and repubs are currently negotiating over long term entitlement reforms in exchange for sequester reversals. That happens to be the best economic policy in the current environment as well as the best thing for the nation long term.

How anyone can get worked up over that is a complete head scratcher.

What do you all think of this article from Thomas Sowell?

That would be like blaming the republicans for a shutdown if the democrats gave them a bill agreeing to fund all of the government as long as a hand gun ban was attached to it. Sowell may technically be correct but it's a pretty asinine way to play the blame game IMO.

I always enjoy Sowell because he's a true genius, but he's also an ideologue. As such, he's not capable of conveying anything that's not highly slanted. You'll never find any truth in anything he writes.

 

[franklin]

https://news.yahoo.com/government-shutdown-backfires-gop-says-democrats-now-guilty-133154607.html



Yeah, it's always just the republicans. The democrats are guiltless in every way shape and form. I am sure glad we settled that we were not allowed to talk about both sides playing the same game, since obviously it was only the teabaggers doing it. It is the same song and dance as it has been, and yes, our legislature needs major reform.

You're still mad that I credited some extremists for getting exactly what they campaigned on?

It's been said several times that it's not an anti-dem or anti-repub thing, but here you are trolling it again.