Ochai- What do we think?

[Handlogten's Heros]

No one’s freaking out about Agbaji?? He’s the quintessential 3@D wing and that’s exciting

No we don’t?? How are we doing that??

You just pump him up... say he is untouchable... etc. Doesn't mean you trade him... just juice his value.

we need guys like him though. We have our two stars in Lauri and Kessler and expect to see us add another high usage player through one of the draft trade or free agency we need a high quality low usage guy like OA to make shots and hopefully play defense. He’s better served here. We have assets coming out the *** we don’t need to trade him to build the roster.

I am not saying trade him for nothing. We need guys like him but we also need guys way better than him... if we can use him to get a better chance at a player with higher upside then you do it. We got assets... sure but a team may prefer an actual player to a future pick.

Lol he might be just as good if not better and he’s younger and cheaper. Why the fu** would we trade him for DFS? Let alone the fact we might be able to get more for OA.

 

[Elizah Huge]

I just want it known I love Ochai and absolutely would not trade him to move up in the draft unless it’s into the top-4.

 

[Thee Idiotic Minivan K]

You delusional man... go look at Klay's rookie numbers and come talk to me.

I said Klay lite not actual Klay. They have similar games.

His defense is not good yet. He is below the Niang Line in Stocks and Rebounds per minute. He does not get into guys at all.

He shows the ability to be good. He stays in front of his man as good or better than anyone on the team.

You just pump him up... say he is untouchable... etc. Doesn't mean you trade him... just juice his value.

I never said he was untouchable. Go just don’t see the value in trading him for what he’s worth, and we still don’t know what OA the finished product will be. What we do know is he’s made huge strides since the beginning of the season which tells me he’s only going to get better as a 3@D wing. You sound as though what he is now is all he will be.

As far as we needing more help, sure but we don’t need them at the expense of OA we have plenty of cap and picks and other assets for that. We don’t need to use him to strengthen the team IMO.

 

[Tremendous Upside]

He stays in front of his man as good or better than anyone on the team.

You have got to be kidding. Ochai's defense is Charmin soft at this point. You can't always guard people at an arm's length in the NBA

 

[Thee Idiotic Minivan K]

You have got to be kidding. Ochai's defense is Charmin soft at this point. You can't always guard people at an arm's length in the NBA

Does he let people get by him at will? No.

 

[checkbookdoc]

I am confident that Ochai will be a good offensive player. I think in a year or two he looks a lot like Buddy Hield this year (~8 3PA per game & ~4 drives/fast breaks) but with a little worse 3% and a better 2% and averaging 14-17 PPG. There is a chance he becomes more, but that is a really great complimentary player.

The real question for him is how good of a wing defender can he become. Right now he seems to have the desire and physical attributes, but needs to improve in technique and scouting. If he becomes a plus defender (not all defense, but good like DFS) then he is going to be awesome. If his defense slips then he is a Malik Beasley level player. All about the defense.

 

[HeatCheck]

I am confident that Ochai will be a good offensive player. I think in a year or two he looks a lot like Buddy Hield this year (~8 3PA per game & ~4 drives/fast breaks) but with a little worse 3% and a better 2% and averaging 14-17 PPG. There is a chance he becomes more, but that is a really great complimentary player.

The real question for him is how good of a wing defender can he become. Right now he seems to have the desire and physical attributes, but needs to improve in technique and scouting. If he becomes a plus defender (not all defense, but good like DFS) then he is going to be awesome. If his defense slips then he is a Malik Beasley level player. All about the defense.

Agreed it will be all about defensive improvement with him which was his main knock (along with age) coming out of Kansas last year.

I believe he can be a nice supporting player for the next 8 years in this league.

Would I package him with picks for a shot to draft a much higher ceiling prospect such as Brandon Miller or a Thompson Twin? Probably.

 

[fishonjazz]

The thing I love about Ochai is that he is the kind of player who you can put in to any lineup and it works. I don't think he needs to get much better than he already is to be a really solid 5th starter / 2nd or 3rd guy off the bench.

I don't love the reports from Tony Jones that seem to indicate that the Jazz see him as the surefire starting shooting guard next year, or that they are thinking of potential free agents/draft prospects in relation to how they would fit with Ochai. I don't think he's earned that kind of respect yet. I definitely don't think he's untouchable, but I would also be careful about giving away a clear rotation level player that fits in to any team we build and is under team control for a long time.

I heard some guys on the local sports radio broadcast yesterday (can't remember their names) who were at a jazz game watching warmups and they said they believe Ochai is going to be one of the best shooters in the league and that they believe he will be a great scorer at all three levels (at the rim, mid range, and 3 point). They were insanely high on Ochai. These guys have access and get to see things we don't so it was pretty encouraging

 

[fishonjazz]

I just want it known I love Ochai and absolutely would not trade him to move up in the draft unless it’s into the top-4.

Me too

 

[Elizah Huge]

Ochai is shooting 40.4% from 3 on 4.5 attempts per game in his last 35 games.

He’s already an elite shooter as a rookie. I have a lot of faith in him going forward.

Super weird that a lot of people on here are down on him. I don’t get it.

 

[Saint Cy of JFC]

yeah, i only worry about guard rebounds if it's a poor rebounding team - in that case the guards need to get on the glass. since the jazz are one of the best rebounding teams in the league, it's a meaningless stat for their guards. the bigs are doing their job.

Yeah, disagree. I guess on a very macro scale that's a thing that can be said, but guards are responsible for long rebounds and being aware of positioning for said rebounds. You can be a very good rebounding team by the numbers due to having bigs and still give up key rebounds because you have poor rebounding guards.(See much of the Gobert/Mitchell era, especially in clutch minutes).

And I'm pretty sure I've read/listened to comments from Hardy saying he wants Ochai to do more on the court, such as rebounding, so it's not Hardy telling him don't worry about the boards.

 

[Saint Cy of JFC]

Ochai is going to be very good though. His defense is average right now and it's probably going to get better, but even if it doesn't, he's still not a negative and he brings more in terms of shooting ability than he gives up on defense.

His ceiling depends on how good he can get at attacking closeouts. Right now it's not something he's very good at all.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

Ochai is shooting 40.4% from 3 on 4.5 attempts per game in his last 35 games.

He’s already an elite shooter as a rookie. I have a lot of faith in him going forward.

Super weird that a lot of people on here are down on him. I don’t get it.

Its not that we are down on him... its that we aren't high on our own supply. I honestly have zero problem with his offense and his approach. Its his defense and activity stats are embarrassingly low for an athletic "3 and D" guy. I actually liked how he played defensively last night even though he got in foul trouble. He needs to be several measures more physical if he is going to earn the 3 and D label. It should be an absolute point of emphasis for him rest of the year even if he fouls out of every game.

I just don't see him as a surefire building block yet and we have people pumping him like he's Klay lite. He is an older rookie so his development curve won't be that steep... unless he is a bit of an outlier. I think he will be solid and an nba rotation player for 10 years... that is a solid win for where he was drafted... but you might have opportunity to cash in on his perceived upside with another team. I'd probably use a future pick instead but the team we are trying to work with might prefer the player to the pick too.

With rookies if they suck their value goes in the tank after they are drafted. If they are solid their value can have this upside baked into the price... I could see Ochai developing on the defensive side and adding some things offensively... I could also see him stagnate a bit and he's kind of a replacement level 3 and lowercase d guy.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

Ochai is going to be very good though. His defense is average right now and it's probably going to get better, but even if it doesn't, he's still not a negative and he brings more in terms of shooting ability than he gives up on defense.

His ceiling depends on how good he can get at attacking closeouts. Right now it's not something he's very good at all.

Not sure I'd call him average. His stocks and rebounds are below the Niang line. He stays in front but gives way to much space. He has shown some ability on the break to make plays. He's generally in the right spots but it doesn't matter much. He is really athletic looking so people assume he's good on defense.

Can he get there? sure. I just think guys with low activity stats its kind of an indicator... honest question... have there been guys that made big improvements there? It feels like something you either have or you don't have. I could be convinced otherwise... but its a reason stats nerds love stock numbers in their draft analytics as it usually translates well.

 

[Saint Cy of JFC]

Not sure I'd call him average. His stocks and rebounds are below the Niang line. He stays in front but gives way to much space. He has shown some ability on the break to make plays. He's generally in the right spots but it doesn't matter much. He is really athletic looking so people assume he's good on defense.

Can he get there? sure. I just think guys with low activity stats its kind of an indicator... honest question... have there been guys that made big improvements there? It feels like something you either have or you don't have. I could be convinced otherwise... but its a reason stats nerds love stock numbers in their draft analytics as it usually translates well.

Stocks are hardly the end all be all of defense. Will Hardy is also in mad scientist mode currently with his defensive scheming, so it's natural to assume players are going to struggle a bit with the wild chamges. You are overly critical of his defense because you perceive some people as over hyping him so you are attempting to balance it out.

 

[Saint Cy of JFC]

And Ochai is not a stocks guy. Never was at the college level. If you are waiting on him to be some kind of big time disruptor you are always going to be low on what he brings defensively. His defensive ceiling will be more based on the quality of his team defense. And he's showing he has that potential

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

Stocks are hardly the end all be all of defense. Will Hardy is also in mad scientist mode currently with his defensive scheming, so it's natural to assume players are going to struggle a bit with the wild chamges. You are overly critical of his defense because you perceive some people as over hyping him so you are attempting to balance it out.

Not really at all... I feel zero reason to balance anything... I call it exactly how I see it. Stocks are an important indicator of activity. Combined with his low rebound numbers they tell me something isn't quite right. I see him staying in front but guys still having room to shoot or going over him. I watch... he isn't up into guys like Grimes or other comps.

Its not a scheme thing lol... its when he is on ball that I just haven't seen it yet... at least not in any kind of volume. Maybe it comes... I hope it does.

I'm just saying if the opportunity comes where some GM buys into the hype... I might cash in if they pay for the hype and I find something I need. Just don't see him as untouchable or this building block we plan around. Like if we don't draft hawkins or some other 2 guard because we have Ochai slotted in as the 2 guard of the future... I think its a mistake.

 

[Saint Cy of JFC]

Not really at all... I feel zero reason to balance anything... I call it exactly how I see it. Stocks are an important indicator of activity. Combined with his low rebound numbers they tell me something isn't quite right. I see him staying in front but guys still having room to shoot or going over him. I watch... he isn't up into guys like Grimes or other comps.

Its not a scheme thing lol... its when he is on ball that I just haven't seen it yet... at least not in any kind of volume. Maybe it comes... I hope it does.

I'm just saying if the opportunity comes where some GM buys into the hype... I might cash in if they pay for the hype and I find something I need. Just don't see him as untouchable or this building block we plan around. Like if we don't draft hawkins or some other 2 guard because we have Ochai slotted in as the 2 guard of the future... I think its a mistake.

No one is passing up on anyone cuz of Ochai because Ochai can play the 2 or 3 and you need a number of wings/guards on a roster.

Also zero reason to trade him when the Jazz want to compete soon and are low on rotation quality players. He's absolutely a future piece you want to hold onto unless you are absolutely sure of a potential trades upgrade ability

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

And Ochai is not a stocks guy. Never was at the college level. If you are waiting on him to be some kind of big time disruptor you are always going to be low on what he brings defensively. His defensive ceiling will be more based on the quality of his team defense. And he's showing he has that potential

Its not that he's just not a stocks guy... he's a Bogey/Niang level stocks guy... rebounding is worse too... He's definitely not a lock down guy right now. So please show me some guys with this low of activity stats that are considered good defenders... good enough that you might call them 3 and D. I think he's a 3 and ? guy... and we assume the D part is there or will come... it might not.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

Like Ochai is more Reggie Bullock than Klay Thompson... and I would absolutely be happy to be wrong there. He likely has more off the dribble than Bullock but not sure he is going to be as good of a defender. You don't give that away... but if someone came to you with a trade that was a bigger needle mover and are buying that he is more than that... I do the deal. Its unlikely such a trade materializes but I could see a team saying they would move back 10 spots in the draft but they would prefer Ochai instead of a future pick.... that's really the only reason I brought it up. We might be able to do it with a pick or by taking on some salary... and I'd probably prefer that.